My disapointment w\ Denon DVD-2900 (1 Viewer)

[chris_clem]

Hi!

Pardon me for reviving an old thread but I am in the process of selecting a very good progressive scan dvd player for around $1000 (to be used with my soon-to-be-purchansed Panny FP). This unit is one that interests me because of it's universal player features and I was under the impression that the video quality for this player was beyond reproach. Apparently many do not feel this way though and say that for video many players would be better than this unit. In light of this, I might want to forgo having a universal player if someone could tell me which units to consider if I just want the best DVD-V player at around $1000? (Since it's just a dedicated player, it should be much better (PQ and SQ)than this player at playing dvd's, right?)

 

[Elbert Lee]

I a huge Denon fan and have the 9000 player. It's excellent in almost ALL respects and have been following Denon's progress in video performance category since they started bringing their players to the market.
The 9000 is the first Denon DVD player that I have owned. I, like many Denon enthusiasts, were very disappointed with the presense of the Chroma Upsampling Error on the 9000, and even the 2800Mk2.
The reason why there is disappointment is because there ARE so many players out there that do have this bug and yet, Panasonic, was able to manufacture players that do not have this problem. Denon's representation on these various forums were great at hearing the outcry over this issue and SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSED in the pre-release advertising and product descriptions of their players (9000, 3800, 1600, etc.). Sub $200 DVD players from Panasonic are chroma bug-free and it seem reasonable to expect that Denon, who has base their first generation of players on Panasonic, to be able to overcome this issue on their second generation of progressive scan DVD Players, especially since it was so glaringly obvious on the DVD2800.
Denon Jeff was very generous with his time in addressing Denon consumer concerns, but I have to say that the presense of the chroma bug on the flagship 9000 player and now even the third generation 2900 player, just shows Denon's relative lack of expertise in the area of video. Audio has always been Denon's strength and I will continue to consider Denon products at the top of my favorite HT gear, but I have concluded that Denon isn't quite there yet. I do applaud their efforts in attepting to make the best products out there and I will accept the fact that Denon is still trying.

 

[Phil Nichols]

Elbert,

I'm a bit confused by your comments regarding the chroma upsampling error (CUE ........ or "chroma bug") and the Denon 9000, 3800, and 1600 DVD players.

Denon issued a CD patch 14 months ago to completely remove the CUE from the early 9000's and the 3800's and it worked perfectly. The 1600 never had the CUE at all right from the start.

The 2900 also does not have the CUE. It has some other slight chroma problem that is not as serious as the classic CUE problem.

(I may have mis-interpreted what you were saying however.)

 

[chris_clem]

Is it accurate to say that PQ and SQ-wise when playing plain dvd's that the 1600 is equal to the 2800? Because if so I can save some cash by getting that instead... barring any other suggestions for a better unit...

 

[Darryl_B]

Chris, as owner of both the 1600 and 2800, the answer to your question is absolutely not. The 2800 has one of the worst chroma upsampling errors I've seen - even visible on interlaced output. The 1600 not only doesn't have it, it also has a much better video signal overall, resulting in a sharper image. If you can find one (they have been discontinued), I'd suggest getting a 1600 grabbing it without a second thought. You'll be glad you did

 

[chris_clem]

Darryl,

It seems I made a typo on my last post. I meant to say the 1600 compared to the 2900 (the subject of this thread) NOT the 2800!! Does your statement still stand? Does the 1600 have superior video compared to the 2900? What about audio tracks on plain dvd's are they the same quality for either unit? (Someone told me in a different thread that SQ is the same for all dvd's provided they are connected using either optical or coax...not sure if this is true though.)

Any other comments from any one? Best plain dvd player at this price point?

 

[Elbert Lee]

Phil- I am aware of the patch and applaud Denon for adressing it. I installed the patch on my 9000 and it worked up to a certain extent (some scenes still exhibit the upsampling error)
However, my point was that Denon specifically addressed the chroma upsampling error prior to release of the 9000 and 3800 and even BOLDED[/b] that claim on their website. It seemed as though they had listened to all the fuss over this area of performance and that these two players would most definitely be free of the more "prominent" bugs.

Just prior to release, the statement regsarding the chroma upsampling error was removed and the products rolled out with promises to fix the problem. Almost eating its own words.
Don't get me wrong - I'm guessing that the chroma bug is truly something hard to get around. But I know it can be done.
It's not that my confidence is shaken in Denon's commitment to engineering good products, but even their area of expertise is limited in a relatively new area of digital video/ The universal fundamentals of good audio component engineering is an area where Denon ( and many other brands), is comfortable with, but when it comes to digital video, Denon is still fishing like the rest.

 

[Phil Nichols]

Elbert,

"I installed the patch on my 9000 and it worked up to a certain extent (some scenes still exhibit the upsampling error)"

....hmmmm - I don't know about the 9000, but Don Munsil has come right out and stated that the 3800 in fact does not have the chroma bug. I don' know if he meant a user-patched 3800 or a company-corrected 3800 (i.e.....the later ones that Denon shipped starting last fall).

I see no CUE on my user-patched 3800, but again I haven't examined multiple color saturated regions up close with a mag glass. The classic Toy Story visual test scenes show no CUE on my 3800.

What I DO THINK (no proof) happened on the 3800 and 9000
was that with both the user-patched CUE and company-corrected CUE to their ESS MPEG decoders ...... they INTRODUCED that doggone 37 nS of progressive Y/C Delay, which has to be eliminated by the user because Denon can't/won't make it right for us 3800 (and 9000) owners.

This much progressive Y/C Delay (~ 1 pixel) to me is just as bad as the CUE and I was forced to eliminate it from my 3800 on my own.

 

[Elbert Lee]

Phil - Thanks for your comments. You have any tips on getting rid of the Y/C delay? It's entirely possible that what I'm seeing is a result of that ,however, it looks startling close to the CUE.
I have a Toshiba 6200 (2nd gen Prog. Player that also has the CUE) and it seems to not exhibit the CUE as badly as my "corrected" 9000.
Example:
1) Disney's Beauty and the Beast: Gaston's Red Shirt is not smooth - exhibits broken lines and some color bleeding. The Toshiba 6200 is able to display the shirt smoothly.
2) THX "Moo" Trailer: Robot's red hat is also shows "scan lines, whereas, on the Toshiba 6200, it is smooth.

The infamous ToyStory sequence has a little bit of the same effect, although to a much less degree after the software CUE fix. However, the above two scenes were not really fixed. If it's not the CUE i'm see, it must be something else.
EL

 

[Phil Nichols]

EL,

Check here on the Shootout 3 write-up for the 9000 and also read what they say about the 2900 - for educational purposes related to your 9000's deinterlacing.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-b...rch&articles=5

What you may be seeing in your 9000 is it's Chroma, 4:2:0 ICP problem or, as you say, it's Y/C Delay.

You get rid of the Y/C Delay by using unequal length Pr and Pb cables relative to the Y cable in your component hookup. I use 25 foot long cables for both Pr and Pb and a 6 foot cable for Y. This path difference just about gets rid of the delay in my 3800 by making all three signals arrive together. Pr and Pb have to be slowed up relative to Y and the longer cables for Pr and Pb do this.

I use the red/yellow Y/C Delay bars in AVIA to see the delya go away.

 

[Doug_B]

You get rid of the Y/C Delay by using unequal length Pr and Pb cables relative to the Y cable in your component hookup.

Not a nifty solution for someone who has long component runs to a projector already in place (not to mention what you do when one does a player upgrade down the road). Glad I didn't get this player.

Doug

 

[Elbert Lee]

In all fairness to Denon, I've noticed that many of the players in the "shootout" also had Y/C delay problems. It almost seems like all of the chip designers need to trade one problem for another and all those who use them in their players are at the mercy of companies like ESS, Genesis, Faroudja,etc. In a way, I sort of regret my purchase of the 9000, but it's still a very excellent player in its own right. I bought it on the assumption that Denon pulled out all the stops to do their best to have a flawless player and the reviews have been stellar (but vague and non-critical none-the-less). After owning the unit with such obvious performance lapses, I realized that "pulling out all the stops" on a player does not necessarily mean that it's going to be bug free. Denon really tried to get everything right on this one and should be commended on its effort, but it just goes to show that strong fundamentals in digital audio transports does not a flawless player make!

 

[Ted Ross]

Sound & Vision just gave the 2900 a glowing review

 

[Elbert Lee]

I think WSR is one of of the two publications that actually monitors opinions on the internet and addresses them to one degree or another. Most glowing reviews are very wishy washy and always find a way to recommend a mediocre component with a conclusion like:
"If you are in the market for a $700 player, like silver color components, don't mind a few quirks, and are going to be satisfied with a picture that holds its own against similar players in this price range, then you should definitely visit your 'xyz' dealer and give it a look"

 

[Ted Ross]

I didnt read the review yet-just the "In the Lab" test results. It did very well-both in audio & video

 

[Kevin C Brown]

SGHT didn't like it though. And there have been enough comments about the "soft" video performance that I think people should at least check it out before buying. Like anything, probably depends on each user's setup.

 

[Doug_B]

Interesting, where most folks who fault the 2900 blame the video, my "beef" was with the audio. Although very detailed, I thought it lacked smoothness, sort of an audio version of too much edge enhancement. The notes did not seem to coalesce sufficiently. I think that to a large extent there was a lack of synergy with my system, primarily the speakers. I can believe that the audio will work for many people and many systems, though. I probably could have lived with it (as my aim was for improved DVD-A, which was improved), but since I had a no penalty return option...

Doug