My dilemma: Panasonic ZT vs. Samsung F8500

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Ronald Epstein, Nov 6, 2013.

  1. tele1962

    tele1962 Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2012
    Messages:
    561
    Likes Received:
    59
    Real Name:
    Barry
    Post edited.
     
  2. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
    HW Reviewer

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    17,112
    Likes Received:
    898
    Location:
    Chicago-ish/NW Indiana
    Real Name:
    Sam
    By the way, I told the guy to buy single strand 14awg, 1000 feet.Run two runs of it to a spot mid point of two speakers. Stake there. Run one to wire each to pos on one, neg to the other. Run another single to the other terminals. (Single run wire made simple)The other guy said the series had to go all the way back to the amp. =-O
     
  3. tele1962

    tele1962 Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2012
    Messages:
    561
    Likes Received:
    59
    Real Name:
    Barry
    Sorry you say they " Stacked the deck" you got me on that one. They only use scientific analysis over on HDTVtest and I don't see any problem with the review. they said the Samsung goes brighter, but looking at the reviews I think the Panasonic is a better TV???

    But I am kind of lost here, one minute you are saying there are Trolls on HDTVtest then you are quoting AVS. You have lost me.
     
  4. FoxyMulder

    FoxyMulder 映画ファン

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,236
    Likes Received:
    1,613
    Location:
    Scotland
    Real Name:
    Malcolm
    I used to be a member of AVS, i am not anymore, i am a member of this site and HDTV Test, no trolls at these sites, indeed i find this site a pleasure to be a part of because members can actually have a discussion and not worry about getting hit by infractions and bans, same comment goes for HDTV Test. If i had known sooner about this site i would have joined sooner.

    When you treat your members as adults they tend to behave like adults, that's getting off the subject matter but i love this site.
     
    tele1962 likes this.
  5. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 1998
    Messages:
    29,313
    Likes Received:
    4,685
    Location:
    Michigan
    Real Name:
    Robert
    Thank you for those kind words as the administrative staff here try's their best so that everybody can express their opinion in a non-hostile environment.
     
    FoxyMulder likes this.
  6. Mike Frezon

    Mike Frezon Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2001
    Messages:
    38,131
    Likes Received:
    5,554
    Location:
    Rensselaer, NY
    It is a morale booster to read comments like that. Many thanks, Malcolm! :thumbs-up-smiley:
     
    FoxyMulder likes this.
  7. AlaskanAVGuy

    AlaskanAVGuy Agent

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    1
    Real Name:
    Jeff
    The reason for me stating that they "Stacked the Deck" with the ZT is that they were making comparisons to an older review of an F8500. The problem being that they were comparing a new fully calibrated ZT with updated fixes via Firmware against a first generation F8500's that hadn't had really any Firmware updates as later FW for the F8500 would patch Brightness Pops along with Floating Blacks. So their comparison would be like testing a modded Mustang vs a stock Camaro.
    It's just not a fair way of making a direct comparison as they were trying to imply in the article everytime the referred to the F8500's performance.

    This was my point because they didn't take into account any fixes to bugs at all which i'm confident that HDTVTEST is well aware of these Firmware Updates. For example in the article they say, "intermittent frame skipping" anybody who own's this TV can tell you that this is a Bug and to fix this incorrect Film Cadence which is a result of switching the Film Mode on the fly, all you need to do is stop and restart the movie and proper smooth Film Cadence will be restored.
    Because of comments like this it is a Stacked Deck because it's old news that has been addressed.

    For a fair comparison we need an Updated Review from HDTVTEST for the Samsung F8500 as well. As their article sparked much heated debate across many other forums showing the tricks they use now to try and cheat up their brightness levels at the expense of Clipping their Whiter than Whites to compete with the F8500's White Ouput capability.

    Which I find hilarious because every VT/ZT owner i've ever talked to say that they don't care about light output or watching anywhere but in a dark cave and yet their have been many clients privately asking their calibrators how to pump up their Light Output. Perhaps they finally realize that Light Output is just as an important factor as Black Levels, afterall the mass consumers certainly agree which is why LCD sales are off the chart with their inferior picture quality to the Plasma's.
    And even the Audience made up of Industry Professionals and A/V enthusiasts that voted for the F8500 at the Value Electronics 2013 Shootout obviously agreed giving it the title of the HDTV of the year.
     
  8. David Mackenzie

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    8
    Hi Alaskan,

    We would love to take a look at the most recent F8500 version. Unfortunately we can only review the panel supplied to us and not issue ratings speculatively for fixes that might be applied in the future. Nor can we keep the review samples lying around indefinitely.

    There is no way we can possibly be any fairer than that.

    BTW, you refer to "a new fully calibrated ZT against a first generation F8500".

    I find this comment a little disingenuous. *ALL* TVs we review are fully calibrated and updated to the latest firmware available to us at the time of the review. The F8500 was also fully calibrated and running the latest firmware.
    This is not correct; there is still an issue with skipping (unrelated to what you're discussing) which we're investigating.

    Needless to say, since the F8500 is Samsung's last top-end plasma display, we hope they make it as good as they possibly can via firmware while it's still a current model.
     
  9. AlaskanAVGuy

    AlaskanAVGuy Agent

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    1
    Real Name:
    Jeff
    As i'm a current owner of an Updated Samsung F8500, I know for a fact that the "intermittent frame skipping" has been fixed because i've seen this problem before and now we know how to fix it. As you have stated you only know what's going on with a specific model tv when you have it for a review which i'm seeing your last review for the F8500 on 5-1-13 which is nearly a year apart from your latest ZT review.

    By your own admittance you have not tested this TV in nearly a year since your last review.

    Secondly unless your F8500 was reviewed with Firmware 1119.1 released on 2-16-14 then you do not have all of the Fixes mentioned above and as such is comparing apples to oranges because the HDTVTEST review was done on 3-23-14 and should include such changes to have a truely fair comparison.

    This is exactly why I bring this issue up because you are not doing an up to date comparison. If you are going to do a review in this mannor you shouldn't mention anything except what your reviewing as in this case you put out false information not being as up to date as you are with the ZT.

    In other words you cannot bring up all of the newly devised plans for cheating up the Light Output on the ZT and other upgrades that this tv has enjoyed without putting it on the same level playing field as an up-to-date F8500. As this makes for a biased comparison.

    This is a fair assessment as i'm only stating the obvious it's not like i'm making this up... these are the Facts.
     
  10. David Mackenzie

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    8
    I can see you have an axe to grind :)
    We haven't reviewed it since then. I'm still involved with checking performance, but that's all I can say.
    I'm not sure what you're advocating here - every time one display gets a firmware update, the manufacturers of other similar displays should ship their review samples back to us, at their expense, so we can re-review them, based on their competitors' movements?

    FYI, the most recent Panasonic Plasma articles run on HDTVtest came about because Panasonic's retail partners made them available for review (plus with their official demise, I think Vincent felt there should be a 'send-off'). Samsung's UK press agency was never as eager for us to check out their plasma product, since LED LCD has been their primary focus for some time now. Re-reviewing the F8500 would be difficult.

    We would love to buy all the TVs ourselves and have them permanently running against each other in a lab, but not every site has that sort of mega-budget.
     
    tele1962 likes this.
  11. AlaskanAVGuy

    AlaskanAVGuy Agent

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    1
    Real Name:
    Jeff
    You know i'm actually a big fan of your work over at the V.E.Shootout and in-depth research into screen resolution.

    Having said that with the two biggest and closest heavyweights in recent years going at it
    punch-by-punch I think that we should just keep the rounds as accurate as possible.

    And as you know people that buy a Flagship TV for $3k expect to have the best along with the most accurate reviews in the business. Don't confuse my passion for knowlege as an attack. I'm a seeker of truth and I will be the first to admit that the VT/ZT owns the night and the F8500 owns the day.

    I'm comfortable with those Facts, but not keeping up with these major FW changes fixing the bigger Bugs is just not acceptible to me comming from a Professional Review Source such as HDTVTEST.
    If they weren't so credible I wouldn't care. But they are up there with Sources that are often referenced. And so I advocate that they continue to be the Leading Source for accurate and up-to-date Reviews.

    I can easliy go to Panasonic's website and quickly look up their FW updates and see if they had addressed any major Bugs before writing a review, and this was not done in the case on the Sammy.

    The Facts are the Facts, and as passionate as these two TV owners are about their sets i'm sure you could easily with a single call get one of the owners to bring you their set in exchange for a Free Calibration by some of the best in the business. I'm in Alaska so I offer mine to you anytime just pay for my shipping and leave me with an up to date Calibration.

    Don't take my comments the wrong way, this is business not personal were talking about a TV afterall.

    Sincerely
     
  12. David Mackenzie

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    8
    That's very kind of you - but I'm not sure it's a good idea to ship a 64" plasma from Alaska to the UK, though - or from Alaska to New York. That would end in tears!
     
  13. AlaskanAVGuy

    AlaskanAVGuy Agent

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    1
    Real Name:
    Jeff
    True well maybe one day i'll get a professional calibrator such as yourself up to the Frozen North because we don't have any within 350 miles! So i'm stuck with Disney WOW for now, and some tips from other A/V sites.
     
  14. RickardL

    RickardL Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    483
    Likes Received:
    4
    I think I suggested this some time ago but why not include the firmware revision in your reviews?
    Then it would be pretty clear what firmware version was used when the review was done.
     
  15. AlaskanAVGuy

    AlaskanAVGuy Agent

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    1
    Real Name:
    Jeff
    From the Samsung Review on 5-1-13 I can tell you that they were using FW.1110 which was the latest FW at the time. As of 2-16-14 were now using 1119.1 version. Some of the major bugs that have been addressed are the Brightness Pops and Floating Blacks which have now been fixed so long as you are using the correct settings. Because it is not a fix all for every setting. Which is exactly why some people still falsely claim that they have issues. However as an owner I can tell you that the problems listed above have been fixed.But I def agree with you that it would be a wise move to include the current FW Version along with the reviewed.
     
  16. RickardL

    RickardL Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    483
    Likes Received:
    4
    I assume hdtvtest reviewed the European version and the latest fw now in Europe is 1115.
    My 64", manufactured in June, came with fw 1101, I updated to 1103 which was the latest available in the beginning of July 2013.
    The review was published on 1st of May 2013 so the review sample was probably using 1101 or earlier.

    Edit: the review date is a bit early... 1st of May is even before the HDTV shoot out...
    but that is what the review says....
    Here are the European fw revisions that I found:
    1115 February 19
    1114 February 3
    1113 December 20
    1112 November 13
    1111 October 22
    1110 September 26
    1109 September ?
    1107 August 14
    110? July 26
    1103 June 23
    1102 May 27
     
  17. AlaskanAVGuy

    AlaskanAVGuy Agent

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    1
    Real Name:
    Jeff
    hmm interesting so your latest is 1115 on Feb 19, 2014 in Europe?
    While we have 1119.1 on Feb 16, 2014 in America.
     
  18. RickardL

    RickardL Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    483
    Likes Received:
    4
    1116 available today.

    I assume the differences in releases are more related to different smart apps being available/updated for different regions and not so much to typical TV performance/functionality fixes/changes.
     
  19. RickardL

    RickardL Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    483
    Likes Received:
    4
    Updated with 1118:


    Here are the European fw revisions that I found:
    1118 May 2
    1117 April 24
    1116 April 15
    1115 February 19
    1114 February 3
    1113 December 20
    1112 November 13
    1111 October 22
    1110 September 26
    1109 September ?
    1107 August 14
    110? July 26
    1103 June 23
    1102 May 27
     
  20. Ronald Epstein

    Ronald Epstein Administrator
    Owner

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 1997
    Messages:
    46,416
    Likes Received:
    4,358
    Real Name:
    Ronald Epstein
    I haven't updated this thread in some time...

    Wanted to return here to say how immensely happy I am with my Samsung F8500.

    I am so glad I didn't stick with the Panasonic ZT60. This blows it out of the water with
    its brightness levels and ability to still deliver deep blacks.

    Day after day I sit and continue to be amazed by the picture quality this display produces.
    It is so incredible that I am forgiving of the bugs that are still present. After all, it's a Samsung --
    so it's not going to be perfect.

    I think one of the main reasons that I am so impressed with the picture is the calibration that
    Gregg Loewen performed on it. I couldn't ask for a more picture-perfect display.

    Anyone looking for a top-of-the-line plasma should seek no further than the F8500.
     
    tele1962 likes this.

Share This Page