Mono DVD's: What were they thinking? (1 Viewer)

[SteveP]

The 1988 stereo re-mix of GONE WITH THE WIND was much more stereophonic the either the 1967 or 1998 attempts.

The 1988 re-mix featured truely directionalized dialogue and the music score heard prominantly in the surround channels. As re-mixes go, it worked, for me anyways, pretty well. This mix was shown on the TNT cable channel but never released on video.

The 1998 5.1 re-mix seemed ineffectual and pointless.

I first saw JAWS at New York's ultimate roadshow theatre, the Rivoli in Times Square and remember the disappointment with 35MM mono Panavision as opposed to the 70MM six-track stereo that I was used to at that venue.

 

[MarkHastings]

I just watched Citizen Kane last night and it had a mono 1.0 digital channel. Now I understand the reasoning behind why this is done, but instead of doing a 5.1 mix, can't they at least make a DD 2.0 so the sound will come out of my main speakers instead of the center only? The 2.0 doesn't even have to be a mix, it can be the same audio track coming out of 2 (or 3) speakers instead of just 1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did movies (like Terminator) only have 1 speaker in the front of the theater? Mono doesn't mean 1 speaker.

Now to play Devils Advocate: If the reasoning behind Citizen Kane's 1.0 audio track is to 'preserve the original theatrical presentation', then why was it in digital? and why was the film restored?

 

[StephenL]

Sound & Vision magazine: A Hard Day's Mix
Miramax's soundtrack tampering has turned a classic into a series of music videos.
By David Ranada

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...&page_number=1

"There's so much wrong with the sound of this DVD, it's hard to decide where to start."

 

[Michael St. Clair]

they at least make a DD 2.0 so the sound will come out of my main speakers instead of the center only?

With a typical receiver it takes about 10 seconds to configure it as if you do not have a center speaker. This will engage 'phantom' processing which will route the audio to the L and R speakers.

 

[MarkHastings]

With a typical receiver it takes about 10 seconds to configure it as if you do not have a center speaker. This will engage 'phantom' processing which will route the audio to the L and R speakers.

Yes, but I HATE phantoming. It screws up the audio, not enough to the average person, but I can never get around the slightly processed sound.

 

[Brendan Brown]

I'm more curious about the fact that modern Woody Allen movies have a 1.0 track only....

 

[Mark Zimmer]

Why the obsession with "more speakers the better"? The goal should be accurate recreation, not "how can we make this flashy and mess it up as much as possible?" The Hard Days Night article is an excellent case in point. If it's supposed to be mono, don't make a hash out of it by making it something it's not.

 

[Carlo_M]

The films are not here to serve the technology- rather the technology should serve the films.

What a wonderful sentiment. This should be posted somewhere in our HTF mission statement! People are under the impression that making a 5.1 remix somehow "betters" the original soundtrack. But that can't be done! Simply because the "best" possible soundtrack is the one that was mastered at the time the film was made! All 5.1 encoding does is make sounds come out of places where it was not intended.

 

[Rain]

I'm more curious about the fact that modern Woody Allen movies have a 1.0 track only....

As far as I know, all of Allen's films have mono tracks only, by his own choice.

 

[MarkHastings]

DVD cannot carry an analog audio track

What about Pro-Logic? And I wasn't really reffering to an analog source as much as DD2.0 that has the same mono track in each signal so it'll come out of the front speakers.

 

[Gary->dee]

You mean to tell me that when I buy Annie Hall I'm not going to be able to hear lobsters scurring around on the kitchen floor from the rear speakers?

:p)

 

[Michael Reuben]

And I wasn't really reffering to an analog source as much as DD2.0 that has the same mono track in each signal so it'll come out of the front speakers.

The vast majority of mono DVDs that I've encountered are encoded in this manner.

M.

 

[Lew Crippen]

I can just imagine the improvement that could be made to Psycho, were it to be on a DVD with a 5.1 remix.

Just think we could find out early about ‘mom’.

Hitchcock, due not doubt to technical sound limitations of the day, had us wait far too long to understand what was going on.

 

[Vince Maskeeper]

Thank you Carlo!

It's an adapted standard I really apply to everything. It comes in very handy in my work in music/audio productions- where often the cart is put before the horse (too many people look at the tools to see how to make the music, rather than to have a vision and use the tools to achieve it. This idea is, to me, like looking in your toolbox to decide what kind of house you want to build...)

I think if this "let technology serve the art, rather than the art serve the technology" was adopted in a wider arena (including the production of theatrical films)- we would likely live in a more interesting word [and a movie like Godzilla would have never been made ].

-Vince

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Mark,

Mono Dolby Digital can be encoded as 1.0 or 2.0...both are part of the DVD DD spec and both are used on DVD.

1.0 DD soundtracks play just through the center channel.

2.0 mono DD soundtracks play out the front L/R channels with identical sound.

BTW, this is *exactly* the same effect you'd have if you played the mono sountrack in "phantom" mode. "Phantom" adds no processing to the sound...it merely places the center channel information equally in the front L/R speakers for those without a center. In other words, playing a 1.0 DD mono soundtrack in "phantom" mode on your receiver would be *identical* to playing a 2.0 mono sountrack...in both cases the same mono sound would come out the front L/R speakers.

Some receivers may have other modes to process mono sound. I think my B&K receiver has a mode that might place the mono signal out of all 3 front channels at the same time (L/C/R) to help provide a fuller sound.

-dave

p.s. Vince...the rest of us are with you in the "fidelity to the source" philosophy. Agreed...any consumer media should be about delivering something as faithful to the master as can be. Any changes or "improvements" should only be done with the care of the original artists and if they are done, IMO, the original should be present as an option for the purist.

Personally, I can enjoy a good 5.1 remix (Rocky Horror) but I want my mono original there on the disc for history.

 

[Andrew Bunk]

1.0 DD soundtracks play just through the center channel.
2.0 mono DD soundtracks play out the front L/R channels with identical sound.

That explains it. I was just about to ask about this. I watched the Conan CE, and it sounded very full, and was obviously using the mains. However, when I watched History of the World Part I last night, it was quite obvious sound was only coming from the center. I'll have to check out the phantom option.

Also, a question. For those who are against remixing, would you consider moving just the score into the mains or rears just as bad as adding new directional effects?

To me, I don't mind having all the dialogue and sound effects coming from the front, but it seems like the music gets buried this way sometimes.

 

[Terry St]

I believe there's an R4 Australian disc with a 5.1 track.

I'm pretty sure every region has a 5.1 mix of Conan available on DVD except for R1. I got one from R2(Japan). I also own the R1 mono disc. While Conan might have been origionally shown in mono (I'm actually not sure about that) Basil Poledouris' brilliant score was definately not recorded in mono! Personally, I believe that butchering his score with mono is a far worse crime than remixing the other lackluster sound effects and Arnold's record breaking 300 words of dialogue into 5.1. Others obviously have the right to disagree.

Do I recommend the 5.1 mix of Conan then? Not whole-heartedly. It is definately flawed. The music sounds immensely better than it did in mono, but some idiot got it into their skull that they had to add new sound effects to the mix that weren't there before. Some of these added effects are innappropriately placed. For example, in once scene Conan meets a travelling band of Thulsa Doom's followers. In the mono version he meets them and talks to them, but all you hear is the music and narration. The 5.1 mix differs in that you can hear the hoof-falls of Conan's horse and the jingling of his chain-mail. These sounds are well recorded, but stick out like a sore thumb because you can't hear him talking to the doomites nor hear their chanting and basket beating, which is visually quite obvious!

P.S. I strongly recommend the Japanese R2 version over the British R2 version. The limey's like to censor things for cruelty to animals, plus you'll miss out on the priceless Japanese dub! (Yes, I've watched Conan dubbed in Japanese just for kicks. It is surprisingly entertaining!)

 

[Carlo_M]

(for Mark) I think we're getting lost in semantics. Any audio on a DVD is digital in nature - it's ones and zeros, be it 1.0, 2.0, Pro Logic, 4.0 or 5.1.

But if you're wondering why they couldn't encode it as 2.0 w/ the same stuff that's on the mono track, that I guess was a decision by the engineer who encoded the disc. For those that center speakers that can handle the full spectrum of sound (as opposed to those old "satellite speaker" centers which were overpowered by floor-standing main speakers) positioned right over or behind the viewing area, this is preferable I would think. But yeah if you'd rather have it coming out of your mains you could just tell your amp that you don't have a center. As far as I know, unless you choose a DSP that will default to phantom, won't a normal receiver just route the mono sound to L/R without doing the phantom thing? Turn off all DSPs and tell your amp that you have no center (or just pull the wires out of the back). That should do the trick, but I haven't tried it as I like my mono track coming out of my Energy AC-300 center channel.

 

[Gary->dee]

Andrew Bunk, having at least just the score in stereo or 5.1 for a movie initially released in mono is my primary concern and motive for making this thread. Watching a movie with robust scores such as the ones for Conan or Jaws 2 buried into a single audio track along with dialogue and sound effects, bites. Hard.

If you consider yourself a purist and can justify the reason for not remixing just the score for the DVD because that's the way it was initially released then you have my sympathy. You can't tell me that in creating their scores John Williams or Basil made them to be heard in mono.

 

[Carlo_M]

You can't tell me that in creating their scores John Williams or Basil made them to be heard in mono.

And you can tell us otherwise? (just playing devil's advocate here)