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MLB Hot Stove League 2006-2007 (1 Viewer)

Vincent Matis

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These are actual figures !

Year Starts PA/Start Pitches/Start
1955 5 28 101
1956 10 22 83
1957 13 25 95
1958 26 23 89
1959 23 26 99
1960 26 27 105
1961 35 29 114
1962 26 28 110
1963 40 30 111
1964 28 31 112

See a (almost) complete game-by-game log of Koufax's games:
http://www.tangotiger.net/pitchLogKoufax.html

205 pitches on 1961/09/20
But "only" 16 games of 150+ pitches...
 

Robert Crawford

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Let's remember that Koufax didn't become a full-time starter until 1961. Also, once he was able to harness his control problems, hitters swung early in the count because he was too dominating and often got ahead of hitters so batters back then couldn't afford to take his pitches. As stated, umpires didn't mess around and called more stikes than today.
 

Patrick_S

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Since the Giant's own the rights to San Jose I highly doubt they will rename themselve San Jose Athletics.

As a life long Bay Area resident it’s sad to see the A’s move to Fremont. The city and county made a huge mistake when they renovated the Coliseum for the Raiders return. It cost hundreds of millions of dollars and ruined the stadium for baseball and made a fairly pathetic football facility too boot.

What they should have done was build a new facility for the Raiders and keep the Coliseum for the A’s.
 

Shane Martin

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No real surprise but the Red Sox didn't pick up the 7.5M option on their former star closer. He should be a nice free agent for someone if he can stay healthy.
 

Evan M.

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Yep.......but look again.....he has about 70 starts where he pitched over 130 pitches. Sorry, but that will never happen again. Look through all of the archives and averages you want but the site you are referring to is basicaly proving our point that pitchers then simply pitched more during their careers. He also pitched about 40 games a season....pitchers now are pitching 28-33 games a season. 10 more games a season equals about 1,200 more pitches a season..... Am I putting down the players now??....Nope. Odds are, if the data shows that pitchers can be just as effective after pitch 110 as they are at pitch 45 then I am sure they would pitch deeper....but we know that is not the case anymore.

I used to be a pitcher and let me tell you, not easy on the arm. In fact the thing that needs to be looked at is not pitches thrown....but complete games pitched. 115 pitches over 7 innings is not as difficult as 115 pitches over 9 innings. Sitting on a bench between innings and when your team is scoring runs tightens your arm a lot....doing that 9 times during a game plain old sucks.
 

Evan M.

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Foulke also holds a player option for around 3.75 million and the team has a buyout for 1.5 million....which basically says that if he opts for the option he also gets the buyout which brings his salary to about 5.25 million$. He will never get that on the open market for one season so do not be surprised to see him back on the Sox next year.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...cline_fou.html
 

Evan M.

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Another interesting tidbit on the whole pitchers now and then thing....

It took Clemens 23 seasons to pitch 118 complete games. Heck, for a pitcher nowadays to have anywhere near 100 complete games is a big deal as we all know.

oh yeah......In Sandy Koufax's LAST 6 seasons he got 115 complete games.
 

Mike Frezon

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Vincent: Thanks for those statistics! Since so much of the lore which swirls around Koufax blowing out his arm has to do with the number of pitches he threw, I assumed his per game average was much higher. We've all heard about the high-pitch-count games. I figured they were prevalent.

Since today seems to be Koufax day on the HTF, how about these numbers:

Year/League/SO per 9IP/Rank in League
1958 NL-7.43-2
1960 NL-10.13-1
1961 NL-9.47-1
1962 NL-10.55-1
1963 NL-8.86-2
1964 NL-9.00-1
1965 NL-10.24-1
1966 NL-8.83-1
 

Shane Martin

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Makes me proud to have several of the Koufax signed baseballs :)

I got one every year as part of my mowing I did for my neighbor who played for the Dodgers.
 

Vincent Matis

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I agree with you. The "argument" was that throwing 150+ pitch in a game isn't that big a deal since many pitchers used to throw that many pitches...
My point is that it's wasn't a "big" deal for a 40's, or a 60's pitchers but it is now because the game changed... It's not because Koufax threw many 130+ pitches games that he was a better athlete than let's say Clemens.
I'd say that signing pitchers who threw many 150+ pitches game is more of a gamble than signing a pitcher under a 120 pitch count limit (all other things being equal)

Final Note: Robert, you are one of my favorite poster around here. I really do appreciate your often very informative posts. I didn't meant to put words in your mouth...
 

Robert Crawford

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Vincent,
In regard to 150+ pitches per game, it has never been established that is the norm for any of those Japanese pitchers. Sure, there were times that they threw such a high number, but we haven't seen any evidence that it occurs on a regular basis in their professional career. Matter of fact, most of those pitchers only pitch one day a week which is even less than most ML starters. Also, the premeire pitchers like Mats pitches every Saturday. Anyhow, it appears this player prefers to condition his arm like those ML pitchers that pitch in previous eras and I see nothing wrong with a pitcher doing something that appears to work for him. As noted from my previous comments, every pitcher is different in more ways than one.

As far as your last comment, I just wanted to make sure that you understood that I wasn't making any disparaging remark about today's pitchers. My point was that not all pitchers are created equal when it comes to the number of pitches they can throw in a game.




Crawdaddy
 

Vincent Matis

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In 2004-2006: 76 games pitched, 38 CG game for Matsuzaka.
In 2005: 28 GP, 15CG and 3433 pitches thrown: that's 122+ pitches/GP...

From http://www.japanbaseballdaily.com/Pi...ikoshiba.html:
Under manager Osamu Higashio, there was concern that Higashio, who was an iron armed pitcher with the Lions in the 1970's and 1980's, was abusing his prize youngster, as Daisuke's pitch count ran up to the 160 range on a couple of occasions and surpapssed 150 in a number of others. Higashio was canned after the 2001 season and new manager Haruki Ihara showed a marked change in pitching philosophy, putting Matsuzaka on a pitch count and urging Daisuke to focus on economizing his pitches. Even so, the stress of the Higashio years took their toll and Matsuzaka came down with a bad elbow in 2002. Matsuzaka resumed his habit of often throwing as many as 200 pitches in his bullpen workouts in spring training and continues to do that today, but during the regular season, he does look to economize his pitches and his pitch counts now, even for complete games, are well within a range any MLB skipper would be comfortable with.
 

Robert Crawford

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I still need to see documented proof about what a number of occasions means and the time period involved? Also, 122 pitches is quite different than 150+ per game. Furthermore, I would think any team would have some medical tests performed before they sign Mats which would include MRI on this elbow. Remember, the winning bid won't be paid until a contract is signed. From what I have gathered, problems with the elbow have a tendency to show up good on such tests in comparison to the shoulder in which muscle mass can affect such tests and exploratory surgery might have to be perform to find out the root cause of shoulder pain. Also, one of your links is dead.




Crawdaddy
 

Evan M.

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Phillies are said to br VERY interested in Soriano and may be looking at signing hime for a six year deal at about 17.5$ million per!! The only hangup is language. Soriano wants a COMPLETE no trade written in and the Phillies do not do that anymore.....they are willing to do a partial no trade where the player list a bunch of teams he would be willing to go to.
 

Jeff_CusBlues

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Didn't Koufax have a degenerative arthritis condition? I didn't think he "blew his arm out". I seem to remember reading this as a kid, but I could be wrong.
 

Robert Crawford

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That has always been my take on his medical condition and that TJ surgery wouldn't have helped him.
 

Evan M.

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Taken from ESPN classic biography......

"Koufax had one more magnificent season left in his arthritic arm. After staging a holdout with Don Drysdale, Koufax signed for $125,000 and won his third Cy Young -- with a 27-9 record and 1.73 ERA - despite the intense pain in his left elbow.

Doctors warned that he risked losing the use of the arm if he continued to pitch. That November he retired. "I don't regret for one minute the 12 years I've spent in baseball," he said, "but I could regret one season too many."


My how times have changed.......the guy held out for more money...got a whopping 125,000$ then had what was quite possibly one of the best seasons ever pitched. Nowadays it seems like a players best season is the LAST year on a contract....they sign for big bucks then tank. It is no wonder why when people ask....what pitchers from "back then" dominate today....people always say Koufax or Drysdale.
 

Shane Martin

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News:
A's will play in Fremont at "Cisco Field" it appears.
Matsusake bidding has ended. Boras wants him to sign a 3 yr deal with an opt out clause making the team pay $20M+ then be forced to resign him for big bucks or let him go to free agency quickly. Very shrewd.

Glavine is filing for free agency. I think he'll resign though.

And shockingly JD Drew opts out of his 3 yr 33 millions left deal. Frankly I'm glad, he never produced what he was paid. Coletti didn't seem to care.
 

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