Mini-Disc (MD) vs. CD sound quality (1 Viewer)

[KeithH]

Joe, the 'JB940 does include MDLP. That is one of the main additions in going from the 'JB930 to the 'JB940. None of my players offer MDLP. I think it would be fun to play with, but I don't think I would like the loss in fidelity.
You said:
quote: Second of all, I think that the ATRAC compression of my 2-3 year old minidisc deck doesn't sound any different from my cds, so I can't imagine anyone hearing any differences with a newer deck.[/quote]
Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with you here. With no intention of being insulting, I suspect that if you hear no difference between MD and CD, then your system is not very revealing. That said, MD can sound very close to CD, but I find that CD is always better.
Now, I do not have ultra-high-end systems, but I can hear differences between different CD players, a remastered and original CD, and CD and MD. Without trying to sound conceited, I have in my main system what many have said is the best MD deck that has been made -- the Sony MDS-JA555ES. It is a truly outstanding deck. MDs sound outstanding on it, but still, CDs on good players sound better. I bought the 'JA555ES because I love the ease of use and flexibility of the MD format and wanted MDs to sound as good as possible. Still, they won't sound quite as good as CDs. For what it's worth, I have the 'JA555ES mated with an NAD C 370 integrated amp and Energy e:XL 16 bookshelf speakers. I feel the amp and speakers are very good for the money spent, but they are not all-world. So, you don't have the best gear to hear differences between CD and MD.
Please don't take my comments as a personal attack. I'm just offering my experience.
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My:
HT Pics ; Equipment List ; DVD Collection ; LD Collection
KeithH: Saving the Home Theater World Before Bedtime
[Edited last by KeithH on August 07, 2001 at 04:48 PM]

 

[Joe_H]

I don't take it as an attack at all, but, I bet you that its my ears that aren't very revealing, not my system lol.
I mean my receiver isn't perfect but its decent:
Sony STR-DE935 receiver
Klipsch KLF20 mains
Klipsch KLFC7 center
Klipsch KSPS6 surrounds
Sony CDPCX350 cd changer
Sony MDS-JE510 md player

 

[Westly T]

Actually I'll bet it is your system. I seem to remember not being able to tell the difference back when my system was a little lower end then it is now. With my Magnepan 1.6 QR's running off my Marantz MA700 Amps and my STR-DA777ES I do notice a lack of something, less depth and fullness ?? when doing A - B comparisons. As I said before, MD seems to actually sound better on my car system, so I'll bet you could hear it with a higher end system, as small as the difference is.
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- Wes
My Home Theater
The MMG were replaced with 1.6QR's and added Marantz MA-700's. SVS is here. Ok, allot more then that has changed, I'll update my page some day...

 

[KeithH]

Joe, I am not familiar with your speakers, but your receiver could very well be the culprit. I once owned the Sony STR-DB930 and used it both for music and home theater. At best, I found differences between MDs on a Sony MDS-JB930 and CDs on a Sony CDP-CA80ES carousel changer to be relatively subtle. I then replaced the 'DB930 with a Sony STR-V444ES, which I still have. Differences between MD and CD became more evident. However, back in February, I bought the NAD C 370 stereo amp for music. I also have better CD players now than the 'CA80ES. Although my current set-up is not true audiophile-quality, it is good enough to bring out differences between MD and CD. The quality of your amp, speakers, MD deck, and CD player will determine your ability to detect differences. If any one of these components is a weak link, then you might not detect differences between the two formats. If the amp and/or speakers are lacking, then it might not matter how good the CD and MD components are.
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My:
HT Pics ; Equipment List ; DVD Collection ; LD Collection
KeithH: Saving the Home Theater World Before Bedtime

 

[Joe_H]

Well to be honest with you, I do want a new receiver because i think the sony de line sucks the more i use it... but i'm in high school therefore don't have a great job and have more important stuff to pay for... and most importantly... for now, i'm happy with the sound. THAT is what I think matters most.

 

[KeithH]

Joe, Sony's 'DE' receivers are not all that well regarded in the audio world, and for $500, you could get a significantly better receiver. However, you make an excellent point about enjoying the sound. That is the most important thing. For someone in high school, you should be very proud of your current system. When I was in high school (graduated in 1988), there was no surround sound, but my stereo system sucked rocks. I had a Sears shelf system with a receiver and dual-cassette deck in one box and detachable speakers. It was a real piece sh%t. When I got a Sony D-5 portable CD player to connect to it (the first portable CD player made; before the term "Discman" was used), I thought I had arrived.
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My:
HT Pics ; Equipment List ; DVD Collection ; LD Collection
KeithH: Saving the Home Theater World Before Bedtime

 

[Joe_H]

yeah lol... about the de receivers. i know that now.. but two years ago i was a stupid kid who just assumed that sony was the best everything. glad i learned my lesson.. in fact... i almost bought one of the sony all in one box things.. but then finally, my parents took me into the speakers room at the wiz and i just finally paid attention and listened and picked the best sounding ones... and of course... if you can find somewhere where i can still get rid of my sony for 500 dollars... i'd be glad to get a newer one

 

[Kimmo Jaskari]

A few things; first of all, about having to wait 80 minutes for an MD to finish recording definitely is too long for me. I tend to not know from day to day what type of music I'll be in the mood for, and load up my MP3 player with different material from day to day from my MP3 collection.
If I had to take the original CD and wait 80 minutes to put it on MD... well, it would rarely happen. Either that or I'd have to buy insane amounts of MD discs.
Also, as to the quality of the Xing encoders: unless they have made a lot of progress quality-wise, I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole, myself. Sorry, Eugene.
I'm going to take the liberty of posting to a measured curve from http://www.r3mix.net
Xing also cannot encode white noise properly, unlike other encoders he tested; above 16 khz Xing goes completely haywire. Like I said, check out the site I mention above, it's very interesting reading if you like to know more about this.
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/Kimmo
[Edited last by Kimmo Jaskari on August 08, 2001 at 01:37 AM]

 

[Joe_H]

I believe thats the website i was looking at the other day in which it had a few more charts and all of them showed the Xing encoder to be crap.

 

[KeithH]

Joe, you said:

A few things; first of all, about having to wait 80 minutes for an MD to finish recording definitely is too long for me.

This is why I have a Sony MXD-D3. It allows me to dub from CD to MD at 4x speed. It's never made a mistake when dubbing at high speed. Copies have always been perfect. Once you have made an MD mix, it is very easy to edit if say, you want to change some songs on the disc the next day.
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My:
HT Pics ; Equipment List ; DVD Collection ; LD Collection
KeithH: Saving the Home Theater World Before Bedtime

 

[Jeff]

Well, no one has really answered my question. What would be the better format to store MP3's? MD or CD-R?
Jeff

 

[Kevin P]

Well, no one has really answered my question. X What would be the better format to store MP3's? MD or CD-R?

If you have a library of MP3s already, CD-R is the way to go, since to record them to MD you go through two stages of conversion: MP3->PCM->ATRAC. CD-Rs can store the MP3s as is.
If you're copying CDs, MD is the easier and generally better way to go, unless you want to make MP3 CD-Rs, of course.

KJP

 

[Eugene Hsieh]

I've actually had a bit of email correspondence with one guy on that site.
Some caveats.
Test tones are not the same as music, but do offer good initial info.
I believe both the Xing and Fraunhofer algorithms had been modified subsequent to those reviews, but I have not seen frequency graphs since. That said, for high frequency sounds I did say that it may sound a bit harsh on some tracks, and that likely has to do with the highest frequency distortions as you see in the graph. (I am using the Xing encoder tested in that test.)
All that notwithstanding, you should let your own ears do the listening. Despite all the graphs, the highest VBR settings of Xing sound pretty good. (Test system is either SPDIF out of computer or Apex DVD player, on a Kenwood 1080VR receiver through Paradigm Monitor 7 speakers. ) I encoded several songs with several encoding methods and various bit rates. Like I said, at the highest VBR settings, Xing is pretty damn good. Xing sucks at 128 though, whereas others are acceptable but mediocre at that 128 CBR speed. I would prefer to use a better encoder, but so far nothing even comes close to Audio Catalyst in terms of ease of use. Razorlame is a good attempt (and it's free ), but pales in comparison in terms of features and usability.
It also depends on the age and ears of the tester. Xing might sound worse to a 15 year old than to me. With age, frequencies above about 14 KHz start to diminish in audibility. I'm not an old geezer yet, but perhaps the drawbacks of Xing are less obvious to me as I age.
There is no such thing as "archive quality MP3" as some people try to make LAME out to be. LAME is excellent, but it isn't perfect. Furthermore, assuming you already have the CD, you already have the archive. MP3 is a convenience format, nothing more. For pure sound quality both LAME and Fraunhofer are better than Xing. But given that I listen to the original CD on my home system, other factors come into play, which include convenience, where Xing wins. Otherwise, like with MD, I'd go insane encoding my 300 CDs.
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Eugene Hsieh, VisorCentral FAQ Editor
1000 km on a tank of gas??? Check out the Prius and drive the future now!
[Edited last by Eugene Hsieh on August 08, 2001 at 09:30 AM]

 

[Zakariah]

quote:
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First of all, who cares if you have to wait 80 minutes to record 80 minutes worth of minidisc? Aren't you going to listen to the music anyway? What does it matter if you listen to it one extra time during the recording process?
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Personally, I do not have a lot time to spend on recording.
Even with high speed dub of MD, I think that mixing CD collection to MP3 device still takes less time. With MP3 the album, artist and track names can be easily and automatically tagged into the files. Don't have to use buttons and/or jog dials to name the tracks.
quote:
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Zakariah, if you change songs often, why not just buy a set of 5-10 minidiscs and record them in mdlp4 for 320 minutes per disc.. depending on the quality, thats about half the time to maybe even more of a cdr recorded with mp3s. Minidisc players are also very light. Many players are not much bigger than a disc itself, and all come with a remote with an lcd so even when the player is in your pocket you can see the song thats playing or change it.
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I do change songs everyday. For music listening at home I just use the mega changer. In mobile, I listen to music only around half to 1 hour (max) while in the car or at the gym. So I have to make sure that I don't spend too much time preparing the songs.
I find that MP3 to be very convenient to mix my CD collection for me to use in the car or at the gym.
That's what made me choose the NOMAD II MG player. I picked NOMAD II MG because of it's portability and the great sound it produces. It is very light - it is only 77.1g (plus two AAA). It's got digital recorder, which is very useful to record meetings, and FM radio. I had to buy the optional lighted LCD wired remote, though and an extra 128MB flash card. I think for the price tag they put on the player, they should have included the wired remote as well.
I like both MP3 and MD players. Both can produce good sound - although they can never be as good as CD. I chose the one that I think takes me less time to 'play around' with before enjoying the music.
Zak.
[Edited last by Zakariah on August 08, 2001 at 11:03 AM]
[Edited last by Zakariah on August 08, 2001 at 12:18 PM]

 

[Kevin P]

I do change songs everyday. For music listening at home I just use the mega changer. In mobile, I listen to music only around half to 1 hour (max) while in the car or at the gym. So I have to make sure that I don't spend too much time preparing the songs.

Here's a cool idea, since you have a CD megachanger. Get a MD deck and connect it to the megachanger. Sometime, when you're not going to be listening to your system at home for a while (say, when you go to work, or go to bed at night), pop in a blank MD, set it to record, then put the megachanger on shuffle. In an hour or so (or 3 or 4 if you use MDLP mode), you'll have a MD full of songs, and you'll even get a surprise since you won't even know what songs you got. Take that MD to the gym, pop another blank in at home and make another shuffle compilation. Then you can build a collection of mobile music without taking up much of your time at all.
KJP

 

[Eugene Hsieh]

Here's a cool idea, since you have a CD megachanger. Get a MD deck and connect it to the megachanger. Sometime, when you're not going to be listening to your system at home for a while (say, when you go to work, or go to bed at night), pop in a blank MD, set it to record, then put the megachanger on shuffle. In an hour or so (or 3 or 4 if you use MDLP mode), you'll have a MD full of songs, and you'll even get a surprise since you won't even know what songs you got. Take that MD to the gym, pop another blank in at home and make another shuffle compilation. Then you can build a collection of mobile music without taking up much of your time at all.

Good idea, except that you'll only get about 15 songs or whatever on it, and it's quite possible 7 of them are ones we don't like at all. It's nicer (for some of us) to have all the songs stored on our hard drives so that we can pick and choose.
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Eugene Hsieh, VisorCentral FAQ Editor
1000 km on a tank of gas??? Check out the Prius and drive the future now!

 

[Kevin C Brown]

CD-R's vs MDs for MP3:
I would have to say CD-R's. Much bigger capacity than MDs.
CD-R is 650 MB, but MD are only maybe 1/5 of that (or so).
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[MikeH1]

All this talk makes me want to start doing some recording!
3 months ago I purchased my first mini-disc player. Its a portable unit Sony MZ R70. A very "quiet" unit. Each song must be recorded manually for it won't have realistic volume if left to auto rec. Its time consuming but worth it. I have recorded all analog and none digital.
I bought it for tht ease of portability. Nothing like making my own MDs from all those 80s one hit wonders. I have fallen in love with it but...
There is a difference in sound from CD and MD. AND it is night and day. Perhaps its just my unit( i would really like to hear Keiths JDS 555ES? unit) but when I listen to it at home on the Mirage OM-10s and an ancient Kenwood 2 channel reciever( used to have Sony STRDE 965 but sold it to friend 2 weeks ago and am waiting to pick up Denon 2802) there is no comparison between the 2 formats. Minidisc does in fact sound a little lifeless. Its fine to throw in a disc if your housecleaning or painting the deck but if your sitting in your easychair and doing some serious listening you'll find, INMO, yourself reaching for the CD. Now like I said I'm sure there are better units out there than mine and perhaps recording digitally will make all the world of the difference...I'm sure someone will fill me in.
As for the portable aspect it shines. I can still notice a slight loss on the Grado 125 headphones but I'm overall happy, I think just because my library just opened up a whole lot more. Bringing dozens of Cds on a 70km hiking trip just isn't feasible but 10 MDs is. Definetly the cat's ass.
Just a few weeks ago I picked up a used Sony MDS-JE510. A model/unit that has been plagued by a number of problems. I can't get it to record but playback its fine. I'll be trying to get it to work again. But I can't complain...I figured something wasn't right with it when all they wanted was $120.00 for it.

 

[Kevin P]

Each song must be recorded manually for it won't have realistic volume if left to auto rec. Its time consuming but worth it. I have recorded all analog and none digital.

Recording digital is much simpler (no levels to worry about, plus track markers are inserted automatically), and it will also sound much better. Recording analog from CD involves a D/A conversion in your CD player plus a A/D conversion in the MD player. Depending on the quality of the DAC and ADC you'll probably have some degradation.
You should be able to record digitally with a Toslink-to-miniplug cable (assuming your CD or DVD player has an optical output). If one didn't come with the MZ-R70, you should be able to get one online or at a store.
If you can get the MDS-JE510 to record that will be even better, since then you won't have to hook up the portable to record. Note, like Sony's receiver lines ("DE", "DB", and "ES"), they have three lines of MD gear as well ("JE", "JB", and "ES"). JB is better than JE, and ES is the best of the best (and expensive).
KJP

 

[MikeH1]

Thanks for the heads up. Until I get the new reciever my recording days are limited. Didn't know that about the Sony MD line-good info to have. If my JE player is anything like my old DE reciever, then there is lots of room for improvement. I'll be getting into the recording game a lot more this fall.