What's new

Mary Tyler Moore Show Complete Series Set Coming (1 Viewer)

TravisR

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2004
Messages
42,388
Location
The basement of the FBI building
Fair enough. I've already said multiple times that it's a crummy thing to do to the people who have bought the first 4 sets but if it's the only way to get the series out there, I'd take it.

Also, there's still no confirmation that there will only be a series set so everyone might be mad over nothing.
 

Mike*SC

Second Unit
Joined
Jun 20, 2005
Messages
260
A lot of good points are being made here, and a lot of frankly misguided ones, too.

Nobody is being raped.

There is no need to take "sides," because the consumer has the ultimate power. Nobody needs to buy this. It may take some will power to not give in, but that's all it will take.

The studios do not have contempt, stated or unstated, for the consumers or the fans. And on an iffy proposition like this, they do not devise cynical plans to exploit them (they would if they could, but it would more likely backfire). They are absolutely desperate to please consumers, not because they're so wonderfully nice, but because they want our money.

The success or failure of any of these sets will rest entirely with whether they're stocked at the few remaining major retailers. These retailers have enormous power, and are generally ignorant about everything about a product except for how it sells. If they see (as they apparently did) sales of MTM starting weak and getting weaker, they will order few (if any) copies of subsequent seasons, which always sell worse than previous seasons.

So what was Fox's option?

And let's break "Fox" down further. We're talking about 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment, a division of 20th Century Fox, a division of NewsCorp. This division of a division has to justify their bottom line. Rupert Murdoch doesn't care whether MTM's remaining seasons are released. Peter Chernin isn't especially concerned about it, either. The home video division must justify their decisions based on sales relative to cost.

A complete series box set is an appealing business option because it makes a nice gift, it likely takes up significantly less shelf space than the equivalent in season sets, and it will probably get a bit of press.

We can take pretend comfort in the low sales of MTM on DVD by blaming Fox for poor timing, or poor promotion, or poor pricing. But I fear it's simply that the show is not well remembered or well loved by the people who plunk down money on TV DVD sets. I wish that weren't true, but it seems to be.

So this decision to release it exclusively as a box set (if this is, in fact, the decision -- I don't think we yet have absolute confirmation of this) is just a fact of life. It's not crazy, it's not mean, it's not rape. It's just business, and a decision made by people who have to sell the idea of issuing further seasons of a poor-selling show to their corporate bosses and to the buyers at the major chains.

I wish it weren't true. But I'n not taking anybody's side. And I, like everybody else here, really wish it weren't happening this way. Anybody has the right to be angry, or feel betrayed, or simply dismayed. That's all valid. But don't let those emotions keep you from understanding that there are many factors at work here, and they're not simple greed or contempt.
 

Joe Lugoff

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
2,238
Real Name
Joe
All of you who are saying, "Oh, thank you, thank you, Fox, for treating us with absolutely no respect" are the reason the companies get away with these things.
 

Mike*SC

Second Unit
Joined
Jun 20, 2005
Messages
260
Who's saying "Thank you thank you thank you"? Some people are happy it's coming out and expressing that. Some are expressing understanding of why it's come to this (or seems to have). Is that so wrong? Is only outrage acceptable?
 

Gary OS

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
5,987
Location
Florida
Real Name
Gary

Mike, you make a lot of great points, but since you emphasized the word "sides" I'm going to assume you were, in part, referring to my post (and I know it's not just mine, but many others too). I just want to be clear that I'm not talking about "taking sides". I'm talking about presenting one of two "sides" to this issue. For instance, to be really honest, I think you've presented the studio side much more so than you presented the consumer side, as has WendyCR. And there's nothing wrong with that. It just is what it is. When you emphasize that the studio has to do this or must do that in order to make money - their prime objective - you are presenting their side of this equation. My whole point is that there is NOT one correct side and one incorrect side. There are two sides and we can argue from either perspective and be correct. That's all I was saying. I'm not advocating that any one "take a side." But I am saying arguments can be made that reflect the interests of one side over the other. And that's the bottom line in this discussion.

Since I'm a consumer I'm naturally going to come at this from a consumer viewpoint. Doesn't mean I can't see the studio's side of it. I can. It's just that my first interest isn't them getting rich. It's me getting a dvd I want without having to double-dip and spend extra to get it.


Gary "it's really just that simple" O.
 

WendyCR

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jan 31, 2004
Messages
132

So you'd rather no more seasons at all, IF this is the only option?

Like I had said, MTM just did not sell. It can be prettied up in a multitude of ways as to why, but the bottom line is...people did not buy these DVDs, but Fox wanted to give the loyal fans the rest of the series and, yes, not-so-altruistically make some money off the deal. Because TV on DVD is, in essence, a business, that should not be a surprise.

Still, it is not black or white. And on the flip side, I see no reason to shame the people who will choose to double dip, if at such time it is known there will be no individual sets released as well. It has nothing to do with thanking Fox or any such company for "treating people like crap" and/or "letting the companies get away with" such business ventures. It is about trying to sell a product and get the most bang for the buck out of it in the process.

May not be all that uplifting, but the truth sometimes isn't.

If buyers want this set badly enough, they will buy it. If not? Fox just goes further into the hole. That said, I am not familiar with the rest of the Fox catalogue, but if there is a lot more vintage TV to be had, I can sadly see them thinking twice about bringing more such series out when it can't already sell what it has, just like most of the DVD companies out there.

(Quite frankly, as a fan, I was shocked Fox did release Remington Steele in a timely fashion and did complete the series. But then again, I have no clue how well that series sold, so it may have made a difference.)

But back to the consumer: No one lets any company get away with anything unless said consumer chooses to. Free will and all that. You can choose to buy the set or not. And, just perhaps, the worry is for naught and individual sets for the remaining seasons will be a possibility.
 

Corey3rd

Screenwriter
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
1,728
Real Name
Joe Corey

This isn't about respect. This is about the state of retail space in an ever shrinking market. WallMart & Target doesn't have infinite space in their stores.

This series has been a major disappointment as far as sales go. Fox knows that the major retailers will be more open to stocking a Complete Series boxset vs. three individual season sets to wrap it up. Most of the time I walk into a store, they don't stock the early seasons of a series. So not only are you asking them to stock the three final seasons, but restock the first four seasons. More space demands. they can put money into advertising and promoting a complete series boxset.

This isn't like Sony deciding to give up on season sets of Seinfeld and just boxing it up after Season 4. There weren't that many people buying Season 4 of MTM. So it's not going to cause the same uproar.

Hopefully Fox will make an exclusive deal with Amazon or Deepdiscount and offer 5-7 as a separate boxset. They know there's enough people who want to finish off their collections to make it happen. But I can't see it coming out as a Complete Series Boxset as disrespecting me as much as saying, "This is the only way we can make this happen."
 

Aryn Leroux

Screenwriter
Joined
Aug 19, 2001
Messages
1,514
*Sigh*, whenever a situation like this crops up (most recently Fraggle Rock for me), there is always someone who gives a well thought out post, as to why the studio would be going this route. I respect that side of things, and to an extent it is probably very valid. But, it should never be accepted as the right way to go about doing things.

If you as Fox were having an issue with shelf space at the B&M's. You could have made season 5,6,7 available via special order at your website. I think all the fans clamoring for the final 3 seasons, would have been happy to go that route. You could have setup an exclusive at Amazon for the final 3 seasons, I think many would have been happy to go that route. In the end I will probably cave (as I did with Fraggle Rock, selling off S1-S3 in this case, just to get S4 in the complete set) and be happy to go the route of the complete set.

As someone pointed out we have not seen an official press release/announcement by Fox yet, atleast i do not think we have. Who knows maybe they will surprise us here. That they also will be releasing 5,6,7 seperately aswell or throw a bone to those that bought the first 4 seasons. I won't count on it, but we shall see.

I just would like to know 100% from the get go here one way or the other. So I can go ahead and sell my current sets. The last thing i want to find out as we approach the release of the complete set, or shortly thereafter. Is word later in the year they will start releasing them seperately. Just be upfront with the consumer here. Then this will be easier to swallow for everyone involved.
 

Aryn Leroux

Screenwriter
Joined
Aug 19, 2001
Messages
1,514

If i remember correctly Peter Staddon mentioned that there was someone pushing for this release that worked in the office. So Remington may have had that going for it, which maybe helped get it fully released. I guess it could have also sold rather well, but i tend to doubt that.
 

Gary OS

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
5,987
Location
Florida
Real Name
Gary

You're 100% correct on that one, Aryn. Staddon made it very clear in a chat here that REMINGTON STEELE had a little extra push towards a dvd release specifically because there was an advocate working there in the office. People think that never makes a difference. That it's always and only about profit. But I'm telling you guys that it's an absolute fact that advocates in high places can make a difference!


Gary "this was confirmed to me again by a studio insider just recently" O.
 

WendyCR

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jan 31, 2004
Messages
132

Actually, I do recall that, but I assumed that was prior to its initial release, as this was said before any such release and it was just being looked at. Still, yeah, perhaps whoever was pushing for it helped the other seasons get released, too, since, as I said, I have no idea if RS sold well enough to warrant the fairly decent treatment it did get all on its own (i.e. good sales) or by that behind the scenes "help".
 

Michael Rogers

Supporting Actor
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
740
I have made an observation that shows of the 60's and 70's that appealed to kids of the 1970's (i.e. Gilligan's Island, Brady Bunch) sell DVD's much better than the adult oriented shows (meaning those aimed at adults, not ones that were raunchy or risque). Mary Tyler Moore and Bob Newhart were two such shows. Now, I watched and enjoyed these as a kid, but it was usually at the initiation of the parents. I enjoyed the shows on my level back then and have nostalgia for these shows but I think I might be in the minority.

I am sure that other kids of the 1970's might've simply been bored at MTM or Bob Newhart and wanted to watch Six Million Dollar Man instead (which I also love and hope will get to DVD here someday).

Fast forward to today. The kids of the 1970's are grown up. Nostalgia guides much of their classic TV purchases. MTM and Bob Newhart was their parent's show, not theirs.

My parents are like cave people when it comes to video. Most of the stuff they watch is off of cable. They generally don't think of TV series as something they get on season sets like us.

Bottom line, MTM and BN are suffering from being slightly removed from the generation that drives classic TV sales.

And a driving factor of many classic TV DVD purchases is not only nostalgia, but initiating our own kids into the shows we loved as kids.

Again, there is nothing objectionable about MTM and BN, especially compared to today's TV but it's doesn't jump at you as "something that the kids would love" like The Brady Bunch.
 

WendyCR

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jan 31, 2004
Messages
132
Michael Rogers said:


This is an excellent point. The generation/nostalgia angle, I mean. On the one hand, the generation "gap" can be an issue for classic series as it had proven to be for MTM, among others. But there's the flip side, the nostalgia, that may be the faithful viewers that do buy the series. Two sides of the same coin, in a way.

Of course, there's also the case of some series where nostalgia doesn't go a long way, either, in that a show some people loved growing up is out and bought years later - only for these same people as adults finding the show not relevant, inane, or just no longer to their tastes.

And so when the next season comes out, the once faithful decide to pass on the show altogether.

Selling TV on DVD really is a roll of the dice and luck of the draw!
 

Joe Lugoff

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
2,238
Real Name
Joe
This is a kind of bait and switch. Buy Season 1! Buy Season 2! Buy Season 3! Buy Season 4!

You want Seasons 5 through 7 now, don't you?

Well, Buy Seasons 1 through 4 All Over Again! (evil laughter)

I can NOT believe there's anything other than outrage over this. Maybe it's a generational thing. Maybe younger people are used to being treated this way.
 

Gary OS

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
5,987
Location
Florida
Real Name
Gary

Joe, I just think the lack of outrage by some people on this thread speaks to the lower expectations of TV on DVD in general. I think we've come to expect so many disappointments (whether it be cut episodes; replaced music; completely replaced underscore; cut scenes for various reasons; abandoned series; forced double-dipping; etc...) that we've grown accustomed to it. Some people are really just willing to let anything go at this point and not put up the proverbial "fight" for what is right. Just not gonna happen, apparently.


Gary "ok, I've said my two cents - you guys have it from this point on" O.
 

Corey3rd

Screenwriter
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
1,728
Real Name
Joe Corey

What did you do when they did this to you back in 1970 when a studio decided to switch up their release pattern of a DVD? Did you write emails to Michael Eisner when he was in charge of Paramount to complain about why he didn't have the Star Trek out on Blu-Ray in time for Christmas of 1976?

This is not about young people being used to being treated this way. This is just what happens when you're dealing with music rights, retail obligations and other junk.

I've got friends getting laid off everyday. We're all swearing that gas is going to soar back to $4 a gallon. Milk is costing me an arm and a leg. People have lost a nice chunk of change in their retirement accounts thanks to stocks taking nose dives. And somehow you think we all have enough anger to march down to Fox headquarters and demand individual season boxsets or off with their heads. Somehow this deserves all our anger and outrage?

This isn't bait and switch This was the law of diminishing returns with a golden ending. This was a series that didn't come close to the sales projections. They stuck with it for three more boxsets and it kept doing worse. Oprah made them decide to put out the whole shindig in one boxset - hoping her magic O touch will move 'em.

The simple fact is that everything will be in the boxset. if you don't want to pay that much - hold out and wait for a deal to occur. It's not like not buying it immediately is going to make or break the series continuing.

maybe if you need to do something with your first four season sets, give them to a friend who is on their third month of unemployment and had to yank their cable to keep up the mortgage payments. Unless you live in the land of milk and honey where the only bad thing in your life is having to rebuy a couple seasons of a show you claim to be passionate about.
 

David Rain

Screenwriter
Joined
May 7, 2005
Messages
1,165
Real Name
Dave
Clearly opinions have already reached a boiling point over this issue so I really only have 2 more things to say about it:

First, if enough fans of this show had bought the previous season sets then there would not be a problem now. If the sets had sold properly then each season would likely have been released in a timely manner. No sales usually = no future product, folks. Why is it that some people don't understand basic business ? They're not going to keep releasing a low-selling product just because that's what you want. At least in this case fans are getting the rest of the series in some form. Even if it's not the form they wanted.

Second, when it comes down to it some people will never, ever under any circumstances be happy with any product that's released in any form at any time. Even if Mary Tyler Moore herself delivered the product to your door and kissed you square on your ass.
 

Mike*SC

Second Unit
Joined
Jun 20, 2005
Messages
260
Joe, we just disagree. But the way you say it, you imply that this was their plan all along. (I suppose some conspiracy theorists might actually suggest that!)

But this was not what they had hoped for. Fox has released full series' worth of season sets WHEN SALES JUSTIFY IT. In this case, to their and my chagrin, sales simply did not. And I don't expect a studio to complete a money-losing series just because I want it, and I don't expect a store to stock a poor selling product in case I walk in looking for it.

I get disappointment. I get frustration. But I don't get outrage.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Articles

Forum statistics

Threads
356,710
Messages
5,121,111
Members
144,146
Latest member
SaladinNagasawa
Recent bookmarks
0
Top