Logic 7 audio is like a Director Cut's Pan & Scan video? (1 Viewer)

[John Morris]

Recently, I've been reading about Lex owners who insist that they always just listen to music and movies using Logic 7.

Well, I've listened to Logic 7 for music and, IMO, it is about the best DSP mode that you can use for music if you use a DSP music mode. However, why in the world would you use Logic 7 for playback of a DD-EX encoded movie if your processor could natively decode the DD-EX soundtrack?

Let's face it... Logic 7 is a very nicely done DSP. For folks that dislike the native DD-EX soundtrack, Logic 7 seems to fit the bill. Regardless, IMO, this sounds just like, and seems to mirror, what we hear from the folks who dislike Letterboxed movies, or simply prefer, the Pan & Scan versions of movies to the OAR versions.

How can some folks rationalize dissing Pan & Scan, when they tout Logic 7? Maybe the folks who defend Pan and Scan are also the folks who are the biggest Logic 7 fans? Just wondering....

In the broadest sense, can you be an OAR guy, while not an OAF supporter?

 

[Michael Reuben]

In the broadest sense, can you be an OAR guy, while not an OAF supporter?

You're leaping from a narrow example to a very broad question. Let's leave it where you started: DD EX vs. Logic7.
DD EX is meant to be played back as either 5.1 or 5.1 with a matrixed center surround. Logic7 creates its back surround channels using a type of matrix decoding, just a different matrix from the simple DPL decoding used in Surround EX.
All in all, not a particularly apt analogy to panning and scanning an image. A better analogy might be curve screens vs. flat screens; in either case, the entire image is there, just as all of the sound is there in either EX playback or Logic7.
Music is a different subject altogether.
M.

 

[Shawn Fogg]

"However, why in the world would you use Logic 7 for playback of a DD-EX encoded movie if your processor could natively decode the DD-EX soundtrack? "

Because it sounds better with Logic 7 applied to DD or DTS then it does in THX Surround EX (or in DTS-ES). Lexicon owners have had official THX Surround EX decoding longer then anyone else, DD-EX is the same type of decoding except minus the additional THX processing like Adaptive Decorolation.

DD-EX is a 5.1 system which matrixes out a single rear channel so you have 3 surround channels that may be reproduced over 4 speakers. A single rear speaker (or channel with phantom rear image) is a bad idea due to the rear to front inversion that can occur when a sound is reproduced from directly behind a listener. Our ear/brain can mishear the sound as coming from the front of the listener.

Logic 7 applied over Dolby Digital gives you 4 seperate surrounds.

The difference between them is in envlepment, spaciousness and ambiance of the surround channels as well as in steering between your surrounds.

Shawn

 

[Ricky T]

When you listen to a 6.1 DVD, would you listen to the 6.1 track, or the 5.1 track? Logic 7 makes the 5.1 track sound as good, or better, than the 6.1 track (on the same disc). To this end, Logic 7 can make ALL your 5.1 DVDs sound like 6.1! This is awesome, considering the few number of 6.1 DVDs.

 

[John Morris]

I am not debating the relative merits of either Pan & Scan nor of Logic 7. I am merely wondering how can one be a supposed purist and insist on the original playback format with video and not also insist on the original playback format with audio. How can someone who alters the DVDs audio format from that which the director intended complain when JP6 alters his viewing from OAR to Pan & Scan? In fact, maybe playback of a Pan & Scan produced DVD is actually a purer form of viewing a movie that that of using Logic 7(at least I don't think any discs come encoded with a Logic 7 soundtracks?). Is it the fact that usually Logic 7 gear is usually thought of as expensive and elitist while 4:3 sets represent exactly the opposite?

 

[John Tompkins]

John Morris, I dont really understand the point your trying to make. Just because somebody considers themself a purist in one aspect doen't mean that applies to every thing. Apples and oranges.

Would this mean that a purist wouldnt like DPLII because all this is, is a hyped up version of DPL ?

 

[Shawn Fogg]

"I am merely wondering how can one be a supposed purist and insist on the original playback format with video and not also insist on the original playback format with audio."

Why not apply the same question to DPLII or Crystal Extra Surround?

Just because someone doesn't like part of their picture cut off does not mean in any way shape or form that they "can't" like a form of processing that increases their music/movie enjoyment.

By your logic those that don't like Pan+Scan couldn't use line doublers/scalers (and so on) on their video since that isn't how it is delivered.

"(at least I don't think any discs come encoded with a Logic 7 soundtracks?)."

New Line Cinema has released a few discs that were Logic 7 encoded.

Shawn

 

[John Morris]

I dont really understand the point your trying to make. Just because somebody considers themself a purist in one aspect doen't mean that applies to every thing. Apples and oranges. Would this mean that a purist wouldnt like DPLII because all this is, is a hyped up version of DPL?

JohnT: Yes, using DPL2 to alter the original DVDs audio format is the same as using Logic 7 to do the same. I'm just wondering how someone can rationalize having it both ways? Altering an original artist's work, as in a DVD movie, is either okay, or it is not. How can someone defend their criticism of Pan & Scan videos, which alter the original video content, when they themselves prefer altering the original audio content by Logic 7 DSP processing?

 

[RAF]

Interesting thread (and it's good to see one of the Outlaw beta-testers taking the role of "rabble-rouser" for a change!)

I think I understand where you are coming from. Now that I have had a chance (just about 1 month of solid listening) to play around with all the bells and whistles of the Outlaw 950, I must say that once the sonic dust has settled I much prefer to listen to the majority of my sound sources in their original format. i.e DD 5.1 for DD5.1 sources, DTS-ES for DTS-ES sources, Stereo for Stereo recordings, etc. Yes, I've tried all sorts of combinations with various degrees of success (like PL2 for "old" Stereo recordings, etc.)
However, when push comes to shove, I will usually defer to the original sound source format for my listening pleasure. To me, the finest sound in my arsenal is still 2 Channel SACD with no frills (analog bypass, of course).
That's just my personal preference. I'm not a big fan of surround sound for music (I love it on sound tracks where applicable) and DSP modes were always a novelty to me, including those on the 950. For the 2+ years I had my Denon 5700 I can count the number of times on one hand that I used the various DSP modes (Stadium, Jazz Club, etc.) Not my cup of tea.
My preference is to make the sound that comes out of my speakers sound as good as it can rather than trying to create something that isn't there.
Your sonic mileage may vary. Just my 2 (channel) cents.

 

[Ricky T]

My video is rusty (since Michael TLV calibrated my set last year); what is OAR and OAF? How does this relate to whether or not someone is watching a DVD in its original format?

RAF,

Do you prefer discrete 6.1 over discrete 5.1?

I don't think any of the dsp's on the 5700 are that good; certainly not as good as 6axis, circle surround, DPL2, or Logic 7.

 

[John Tompkins]

RAF, I also would rather listen to good ole two channel music any day of the week over other dsp modes. But for movies I use the 7.1 ex mode on everything, does it make a big difference on 5.1 material ? not really but it doesn't screw it up either in my opinion. Its easier to leave the auto flagg on all the time for me anyways.

I had a dc-1 which had dd ex. I listened both ways and everytime preferred the logic7 over ex on movies, very easy to tell the differences.

 

[John Morris]

what is OAR and OAF

Oops, sorry. OAR = Original Aspect Ratio and OAF = Original Audio Format

 

[Steven Simon]

I listened to Logic7 for 3 hours this past Sunday. I liked what it did to DD 5.1 soundtracks, and DTS alike. It seemed to widen the front Soundsatge, compared to the straight mix...

 

[Richard Burzynski]

John:
I love your question, especially this quote:
"I am merely wondering how can one be a supposed purist and insist on the original playback format with video and not also insist on the original playback format with audio."
I guess I'm in the minority as I am a huge fan of DSP's (Longtime Yamaha fan and now Lexicon as well - just recently heard L7) *and* I also believe it's quite OK to P&S your DVD viewing - I even bought a Toshiba DVD player just for its Zoom feature - I have a nice 4:3 RPTV thank you.
When it comes to enjoying the hobby of home theater I've always been a big proponent of doing what you like (whether it's using DSP or a P&S movie cut). Whatever floats your boat!
Does that make me a J6P^2 ?

Rich B.

 

[Dan Brecher]

Well, the upside to the likes of Logic 7 and DPLII is, unlike the Pan & Scan process, one is attempting to enhance the overal experience as best they can. If you don't think it is ok to run Logic7 on movies, why are you quite happy to praise it and understand many peoples wishes in chosing it for music? If the CD or what have you was mixed for stereo, shouldn't one really stick to that?
The great thing in both cases is, the formats are there if you want them, it's not a case of switching to Logic7 or DPLII and never being able to revert back to the original presentation. In my mind, neither formats are a gimmick as many DSP modes are seen to be. In fact, whilst essentialy they are forms of DSP modes, I don't like to think of them as such because I've found both to enhance audio experiences for the better on a majority of movies. Not all, but certainly some.
Now, I don't own any Lexicon gear. I've heard Logic 7 a vast number of times have have never failed to be impressed with it. Should I ever own a Lexicon processor with Logic7, I'd surely option it for all 5.1 material in the hope to enchance the experience and bring me as close to theatrical presentation in my home as it could.
You see, I don't believe the Likes of DPLII and Logic 7 screw with the original mix enough to truly make you believe you're listening to something vastly different to the original source material.
I've got DPLII on my Tag Mclaren AV32R. I have the Indy trilogy on LD... I know my preference in audio playback of these discs. And this brings me onto a point, the Indy trilogy had standard surround mixes. The DVDs will come with both the original dpl (I hope) and new 5.1 mixes on there... What are you going to chose when you watch them? In most peoples minds, it'll be the 5.1. Why? Because it's likely going to enhance the experience of the movie, not damage it. If it damages it? Hey, you've got the original source to go back to. Everything is a-ok!
I'm all for enhancing the sonic experience as best I can without resorting to gimmicks, and resorting to gimmicks is certainly not something Logic7 and DPLII are about.
Dan (UK)

 

[Gene Lockaby]

Great thread, John. I understand your point. However, pan and scan literally deletes material the director intended for viewing, where Logic 7 deletes nothing from the audio, and adds 'something'. Whether you like the 'something' is, like a lot of other things, a matter of personal taste.

Having lived with Lexicon processing for a long while now, I very much prefer it and definitely notice its absence. That said, the Cirrus CES mode has a lot of appeal for me as well. It's not Logic 7, but it is, to my ears, preferable to plain vanilla 5.1 every time.

Regards - Gene

 

[Zbigniew]

John,

are you aware that some studios are using Lex to create 5.1 from 2 channel sources ?

_zjt

 

[Philip Hamm]

I like this thread.
I have 5.1 now and I have no intention to upgrade to anything above until it's inexpensive and there's a large library of software that supports the new format. I prefer listening to the original audio the way it was encoded with no DSPs. I used to like the THX DSP for ProLogic sources but I find that I don't miss it now that it's gone.
So count me as one who is happy with 5.1 and absolutely not missing any of the new high tech DSP modes.

 

[Michael Reuben]

How can someone defend their criticism of Pan & Scan videos, which alter the original video content, when they themselves prefer altering the original audio content by Logic 7 DSP processing?

"Original video content"?
There's no such thing. Once you go from film to video, you've already altered the "original content". Hope you enjoy the ride down the slippery slope!
M.

 

[Ricky T]

So DPL1 and DPL2 are not considered DSPs because they are licensed Dolby standards? Well, Dolby made the mistake of not licensing Jim Fosgate's 6axis in the mid 90s, much superior to DPL1, and avoided the mistake recently by licensing Mr. Fosgate's new invention...calling it DPL2.

If Lexicon licensed Logic7 to Dolby, it'd probably be called DPL3...and all of a sudden no londer a DSP?!