Lexicon mc-8 discoveries (1 Viewer)

[Kevin McCurdy]

John,

You know from reading the various posts I was expecting a subtle performance increase, but I found it to be anything but subtle. Everything I've tried so far is better in my opinion. I'm like a kid in a candy store.

I was waiting until I had more time with the unit, but since you brought it up. Here's what I'm hearing in my short time with the unit.

More realistic effects, on Gladiator I sat there looking up thinking to myself wow, it sounds like the guy is right in front of me. It really made me realize what all this upgrading was for, at least for me anyway it was to achieve a realistic movie experience. Making the equipment disappear and putting you into the middle of the movie.

As others have posted the sides and rears are more active with better definition. Again I was looking around the room saying to myself I don't remember any of this before? I did the same thing when I first used the MC-1 now the MC-8 has taken that to the next level. Better placement and definiton of sounds around the room. I guess what really stood out to me was that right away my speakers disappeared and the sound wrapped around me with better definition and another level of realism.

I get the sense that the bass is different also, but that may be due to the different crossover settings I'm using. It seems tighter, better controlled with better placement around the room

I really don't get the sense that it has a sonic signature. It seems very clean and dynamic.

I would not say that "it's almost sonically the same as the MC-1". You know I thought the MC-1 sounded pretty good, but I don't see how anyone could say the MC-8 sounds the same? It's completely different, new processors, dacs, associated electronics.

This processor is going to be in my rack for a good long time and you know this time I actually think you'll have it longer than 6 months.

 

[Shawn Fogg]

Kevin,

" but I don't see how anyone could say the MC-8 sounds the same? It's completely different, new processors, dacs, associated electronics. "

Because those of us that have said the MC-12 and MC-1 sound similiar (and I level matched double blind ABXed them) were talking strictly about the hardware itself... IOW not using *any* processing at all. Strictly as a 2 channel DAC and line control.... not even crossovers and in the MC-1s case using the expansion port. In that comparison they do sound a little different to be sure, as my ABX tests proved, but they were more alike then not.

When you throw the processing into the mix, esp. the new Logic 7, the differences get much larger. Which IMO just again reinforces that the most important part of a surround processor is its processing.

Shawn

 

[Kevin McCurdy]

Shawn,

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Kevin- Here's that link:

http://forums.smr-forums.com:8080/read?14804,5

Says DC8 but in the post is the MC-8. There actually is a way to test for this. Unhook the digital line *at the player* to the MC-8. Leave it hooked into the MC-8, then see if the auto detect works. Leaving the line hooked up to the MC-8 keeps the physical connection in place, in case that's the problem, but would also eliminate any spurious digital signals from being passed from the player to the MC-8 (if there are any) during analog 5.1 playback. If that makes sense.

For me, I use the DVD1 input for DVD playback, coax1, with 5.1 Logic 7 Film as the default mode. I have DVD2 set up as my CD player, also coax1, but with 2 channel (with the sub) as the mode. And then I have the 5.1 analog inputs into Aux. Just straight analog.

 

[Kevin McCurdy]

Kevin,

Thanks, I read the thread. I reconfigured the internal settings on the MC-8 disabling the analog input for DVD1 and used DVD2 for 5.1a, disabling the digital input. Pretty easy and quick.

I listened to the Eagles and Fleetwood Mac DVD-A's yesterday the bypass sounds great. At first I thought something was wrong because I was getting sound out of both the sides and rears, but a quick check of the manual confirmed this was appropriate. That's a nice feature allowing people to use both or decide on which set of sides or rears they want to use with the 5.1 inputs. I think I'll set the output for my sides to off and just use my rear speakers.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Yes, yes! I also discovered for example, that for straight DD 5.1 deocoding, it "copies" the sides to the backs, and then lowers each by 3 dBs to get the overall level correct.

 

[Kevin McCurdy]

Since I've had a few days to familarize myself with the unit I've come up with a few questions I'd like to ask.

One of things I noticed different with the MC-8 in the speaker configuration is there's no selection for dipole speakers.
In the MC-1 you could choose dipole and it would adjust the output differently (2-3 db's) than a direct radiator. Should I make any adjustments to compensate for the output on the sides or is it not needed?

EX detection I tried two discs to see if my MC-8 would detect the flag (Star Wars TPM & Blade II). The MC-8 didn't detect the EX flag on either movie. When I checked the status window it said EX None. Should I leave EX detection to on to overcome this?. I'm guessing this is due to the movies and the way they flag DD EX? DTS ES seems to work fine it's detected every movie so far even DTS 96/24 came right up.

In the MC-1 there used to be a bass split feature that when the center channel was set to 120hz crossover the bass from the center would be split between the sides. I don't see this mentioned anywhere in the MC-8 manual. Has that been obsoleted with the new software?

Rear delay offset adjustments, is there a method others have used that would allow me to tell what effect it makes? I tried John's method and I've tried various movies and I've gone from 0 to 30 and can't really hear a change. Should I use test tones or is it a function of room acoustics and in my room the setting has no effect?

 

[Shawn Fogg]

Kevin,

"One of things I noticed different with the MC-8 in the speaker configuration is there's no selection for dipole speakers.
In the MC-1 you could choose dipole and it would adjust the output differently (2-3 db's) than a direct radiator."

Not needed any more. The MC-1 and such had the dipole setting because when you were in the THX modes they muted the rear set of speakers per THX. They then compensated volume based on the top of side speaker you have.

THX now supports 7 speaker setups so there is no need to mute the rears any more in THX modes as such that dipole setting is no longer needed.

"I'm guessing this is due to the movies and the way they flag DD EX? DTS ES seems to work fine it's detected every movie so far even DTS 96/24 came right up."

Yes, many DD EX movies aren't flagged. On them you must set DD EX decoding to 'ON' as Auto won't work. Much more (but not all) DTS ES titles are flagged properly.

"In the MC-1 there used to be a bass split feature that when the center channel was set to 120hz crossover the bass from the center would be split between the sides."

It still gets split, where it gets routed to will depend on your crossover settings.

" I tried John's method and I've tried various movies and I've gone from 0 to 30 and can't really hear a change."

Try it on music instead as it is easier to hear its effect there.

Shawn

 

[John-Tompkins]

Shawn,

Whats the difference between the 80hz thx crossover and the 80hz crossover ?


My Denon receivers and various other pre-pro's Ive owned wouldnt detect an ex flag either, unless the unit was turned to on instead of auto.

I switched my citation dipoles back to dipole mode (been trying them in bipole for a week or two)..anyway I guess Im just a dipole person because it didnt take 10 minutes to hear that I prefered them this way (rainfall river scene on Jurassic park 3 was incredible)

 

[Philip Brandes]

Kevin M.:

"One of things I noticed different with the MC-8 in the speaker configuration is there's no selection for dipole speakers.
In the MC-1 you could choose dipole and it would adjust the output differently (2-3 db's) than a direct radiator. Should I make any adjustments to compensate for the output on the sides or is it not needed?"

The "dipole" setting on the older Lexicons did two things. First, as Shawn pointed out, it disabled the rears in the THX modes, in order to comply with THX specs. This had no value other than qualifying the unit for THX certification, and it's been superseded by THX adoption of rear speakers anyway.

The second function was based on Lexicon's psychoacoustic research indicating that because of their diffuse sound, dipoles are subjectively perceived as lower in volume than their measured levels. Therefore, when you set sides to "dipole" Lexicon raised the side volumes by 2 dB to compensate--however, they were only able to this in their own effect modes (Logic 7, etc.), they couldn't do it in THX modes and still meet spec. If you agree with their reasoning, the better apporach (then and now) would be to raise the system-wide side levels by 2 dB when using dipoles.

If you're using dipole sides, to figure out which you prefer, run the internal test tones and listen to the cycle with sides calibrated the same as other channels, and again with sides 2 dB louder. Whichever configuration gives you the sense of being equally loud as the other speakers is the one you'll probably prefer.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

 

[John-Tompkins]

If you agree with their reasoning, the better apporach (then and now) would be to raise the system-wide side levels by 2 dB when using dipoles.

Ive still been adjusting the volume controls in the effects mode. I prefer the 2db dipole hike for movies but for various music logic mode prefers to have them at 0. Its also just easier for me to keep attrack of everything when the main calibration is set the same across the board, but thats just me.

 

[Shawn Fogg]

John,

"Whats the difference between the 80hz thx crossover and the 80hz crossover ?"

For the high pass the 80hz THX is second order per THX specs. The regular 80hz is fourth order high pass like all the other crossover settings. For the low pass there is no difference between them.

"My Denon receivers and various other pre-pro's Ive owned wouldnt detect an ex flag either, unless the unit was turned to on instead of auto."

There is no flag to detect on most DVDs that is why the auto setting isn't detecting it. If you try one of the few movies that is flagged the auto setting will detect it and it will turn on EX decoding. If you have Pearl Harbor I think the French soundtrack on it is flagged for some reason.

Shawn

 

[Kevin McCurdy]

Shawn & Philip,

Thank you for your detailed responses! I really appreciate it.

John,

You can keep the main calibration the same just go into the individual listening modes and adjust the output up/down 2 db's for your dipoles based on your preference.
You've got the capability might as well use it, especially if that's the way you prefer it? Nothing to really to keep track of, let the MC-8 keep track of it for you.

 

[John-Tompkins]

Kevin,

Sorry I guess I didnt phrase it clearly, as that is exactly what Im doing. Instead of uping the main claibration by 2db I calibrate to a 0 db difference in the main calibration, I just use the volume adjustment per mode.

Shawn,

Thanks for the thx crossover explanation.


Check this out for being stupid...Ive always used the radio shck meter to calibrate of course, but what Ive always done up untill last night was stick the meter out right in front of my head (holding it in my hand). Last night I decided to pick my lazy butt up and put the radio shck meter on a box in my exact sitting position (keep in mind this is only a small distance difference as compared to holding it in my hand)..well what I found was my levels changed kinda drastically, my center had to be turned up by 1.5 db and and left was .5 off and right was correct, the sides and backs changed too, the sides had to be turned up by 1 db and backs down by 1 db...dam! I wouldnt have thought getting the meter out of my hand and onto the box would have made such a drastic difference..

 

[Andy Bell]

I have been following this thread with interest because I have an MC-12B and have dipoles for my side surrounds and direct radiators in the back. Thanks Philip and Shawn for sharing your Lexicon expertise. I will play with bumping the sides up 2 dbs. Kevin McCurdy and John-Tompkins as you can see I live very close to you two. Glad you are enjoying your MC-8s.
Andy

 

[Kevin McCurdy]

John,

I know what you mean with the Radio shack meter. It's kind of tough to read when your trying to get out of the way. I use pillows and stack them up to ear level and place the meter on top of those at an angle.

Andy,

Yeah, I'm really enjoying this new toy. It's funny when you read these forums and realize hey that person is right down the street or in the next town.



On the topic of EX decoding, I just realized (which is also in the manual) that when you set the ex decoding to on the unit will only use DDEX and will not go into the THX Ultra2 listening mode.
I think I preferred THX Ultra2 to EX from my quick comparison between the two, but I still prefer 5.1Logic7 to either of those. Wow, a lot of choices to try and digest.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

I still haven't had a chance to look this up. On the MC-8, is there a shift command to manually force EX (or ES) decoding, if for example we know that it's an EX (or ES) recording?

 

[Steve Morgan]

John,
I use a cheap tripod I bought at Circuit City for 19.95. You can adjust to the exact height as your head and gives a more realistic reading. Whats another pound on an elephant when you just bought the MC-8. Happy 4th.
Later,
Steve

 

[Kevin McCurdy]

Kevin,

Your right it's "Shift","THX" on the remote for DD EX and once you do that it toggles between EX decoding on, off and auto, which in turn enables either EX or THXUltra2 to be used. DTS ES you use "Shift", "DTS" to toggle between the decoding. Again it's really easy to do.

I can see I have some more programming to do with my MX-500.

 

[Ron_L]

Is there a mode on any Lexi processor that will send sound to JUST the surround speakers? It only has to be 2 channel source, but can it be routed to the surrounds?