LaserDisc fans: let's talk about killer PCM tracks (1 Viewer)

[Lee L]

I'll have to second the Lion King, the PCM track is simply gorgeous (hands up who's ever got tired of rewatching the Circle Of Life opening sequence!).

Even though I get tired of the whole thing, I still get goosebumps at the end of the opening when that bass drum hits.

You should go to Walt Disney World where it seems that they drag that opening out on any attraction remotely related to Lion King. I saw the musical in NY and they did it there too. The bass sounded pretty good in there I must say.

 

[Brendon]

Lee,

Having been to WDW and seen the Lion King show at Animal Kingdom, and seen the musical stage show in London's West End, I know what you mean about capitalising on the sequence, yet I don't tire of it.

"Under The Sea", however, at WDW drove me absolutely mad!!

Despite the DVDs (especially Snow White and Fantasia Anthology) being good, I miss the Disney Animated Laserdiscs *sniff*!

Brendon

 

[Aaron Reynolds]

Grant B: you wanna sell that Rock'n'Roll Circus LD at a profit? Please?
I'm feelin' mighty jealous right now.
I forgot how good T2 sounded -- it was my third LD, so needless to say, it got spun until I was so sick of it that I sold it (in 1997 or so). I recently picked up the original T2:SE THX boxed set (for $10), and man does it ever sound great...but I'm still sick of the film.
And I have to admit it...I hate The Lion King. Hate it. I've owned as many as three copies at once (from buying people's collections -- one guy had two copies, but also had Raiders of the Lost Ark and a sealed Star Wars SE box, so I had to buy 'em), and I've never ever watched any of them. I saw the film once in the theatre, and I saw the Circle of Life sequence at a home theatre store I used to frequent on their big system, and yeah, it was great...but I hate that movie.
I am a Disney fan, though. Go figure.

 

[Aaron Reynolds]

Which DVD version ofApocalypse Now best reproduces that LD track? Are there any planned for release (W/PCM)?

Sadly, PCM tracks aren't much in fashion on DVD, except for music programs. The good news is that both Apocalypse Now and Apocalypse Now Redux feature Walter Murch's DD5.1 mix, which is excellent...just not quite as good as the PCM track on the old LD, IMHO. Definitely way more directional, though, and he uses it to great effect.

The last MGM LD release of West Side Story (the widescreen one with the red cover) has a PCM track that is a revelation compared to all other video versions of the film. There was a DVD released of the same transfer, but I don't know whether or not it had a PCM track.

Another great PCM track: Interview With The Vampire. Wow. Listen to the score as Lestat picks up Louis and flies into the air near the beginning. Deep, gut-punching bass, without sounding showy or overcooked.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I think that "jitter" might also have something to do with why laserdisc sounds so good.

Just for the unititated...jitter is the variating in timing between sample points (the bit word lengths that describe the amplitude of the waveform). Various transports, cables, and other factors can all introduce slight variations in timing between the samples that alter slightly the final waveform produced by the D/A converter. Shocking as it may seem, most conventional d/a designs do *not* do much in the way of buffering or reclocking the data...the d/a slaves to the masterclock signal that's sent matrixed into the digital signal contatining the auido data. Even many decoders that must "buffer and unzip" the compressed bitstream don't fully reject incoming jitter as the masterclock governing d/a conversion is still ultimately synchrnized with the master clock of the incoming signal.

Ok...nuf about jitter.

The reason I think that jitter may have something to do with this is for a few reasons:

1. Laserdisc is a very large, heavy and stable platform that would naturally introduce less jitter (ie timing variation) between samples during the data-read from the disc.

2. I have many music laserdiscs (like music videos) with PCM sound that sound dramatically better than their PCM-red-book CD counterparts. Keep in mind I'm comparing the 2 formats played on the same laserdisc transport and decoded through the same external d/a. Almost without fail, the laserdisc has a smoothness and silkiness and paints a "blacker" background to the music vs the more flat/hard sounding highs from CD. Remember folks...this is PCM to PCM comparing here. Also, I might have attributed the difference to mixing or mastering issues between the 2 formats but they are consistent regardless of the particular LD/CD. Invariably, almost *all* PCM laserdisc tracks have this same "lush/liquid" sound compared to the typical "flatter" sound of CD.

3. AC-3 on laserdisc typically sounds better than AC-3 on DVD. I know many out there will assert that it's because the DD on DVD has been altered for mix-down and dialog norm etc. But *still*...why should this trend be so consistent (with LD sounding so much better) that one can predict wtih almost 100% accuracy that the LD will sound better? In any case...

4. PCM on LD sounds better than PCM on DVD. Yes folks...it really does! I have many music-video DVDs that have PCM sound (many from Columbia) and they don't sound anything like the glorious PCM from laserdisc. One thought is that maybe the digital master tapes are sampled at 44.1 and since DVD uses only 48 kHz (and it's multiple of 96 kHz) that maybe the pcm sound got shoved through some converter or an d/a/d cycle. In any case...it also might be an indication that maybe one reason laserdisc sounds so good...both PCM and AC-3...is that it's a lower-jitter format.

Those out there with the Camalot Dragon jitter filter...do you find that 5.1 DD on DVD sound more on par with AC-3 on laserdisc when run through the jitter filter?

-dave

 

[Brett C]

Also take into account that PCM tracks are at 1536kbps unlike the lossy compression schemes of DD. Listen to the opening score on Mars Attacks on the pcm than compare it to the 5.1 dd track on the DVD(384kbps) and in comparison the DVD is atrocious,almost mono sounding by comparison...Only reason I miss laserdisc not being around anymore was because of its Audio quality...

 

[Vegas 1]

Some more good PCM tracks;
Quigley Down Under (better than dvd to my ears)
Quick & the Dead
Tomestone
Three Musketeers
Patriot Games
Red Heat
Signature Street Fighter
Wyatt Earp
Apollo 13
Casper

 

[Brett C]

Casper in DTS on laserdisc is incredible!!! The fidelity is almost supernatural on that track...I'm very suprised it hasn't made its way to DVD from Universal yet...

 

[Gary Kellerman]

While I do not own the disc, I rented the clv and cav versions of Jurassic Park a few years back. The cav version's picture quality was sharper and clearer than the clv version. I could say the same about the PCM sound quality as well. This was the best LD that I saw and heard.

 

[Adam Barratt]

Also take into account that PCM tracks are at 1536kbps unlike the lossy compression schemes of DD.

LaserDisc PCM is 1411kbps. 1536kbps is the bit-rate required for a 16-bit 48kHz PCM soundtrack, but LaserDisc is 44.1kHz (just like CD).

David, that's an interesting notion about jitter. My old LaserDisc player (a Denon) had quite high jitter, while my last two DVD players have both had extremely low jitter figures (less than 180ps). My LaserDiscs' PCM soundtracks still sounded better than PCM from these DVD players.

I still have my doubts about the importance of jitter, but would love to try one of those jitter reducing widgets one of these days.

Adam

 

[Leo Kerr]

I second the motion for the Definitive Collection Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back
With a good stereo system, and you in the sweet spot, that PCM disc has full, environmental surround sound, with no additional processing.
You can test it: start with the wind-storm on Hoth (the whole probe-droid crash sequence) and into the rebel hanger and control rooms.
All in just 'plain' stereo.
Leo Kerr
[email protected]

 

[Ken_McAlinden]

Much like "The Lion King", the PCM track on the most recent LD of "The Little Mermaid" is actually superior to the DD5.1 track in many respects.

Regards,

 

[Declan]

hey everybody................
1st post....
cant beleive I have never been on this forum till now...................anyway....
I've about 70-75 or so lasers. Love the format, the big covers, gatefolds and all, and of course the sound.
I got a second hand Pioneer 925 LD player a few weeks back to replace my old 515 (which was on it's last legs), so I now have the sound from my LD player going through the amp with an optical cable. The difference was unbelievable.
so what are my favorites:
Indiana Jones Boxset (pal)
excellent sound from every end (high and low), Williams music comes arcoss with authority, and pumps up the excitement no end.
Patriot Games (pal)
Fantastic bass off the music.
Casper (pal)
In THX mode this was the only disc I noticed that THX made split rear activity out of. Check when stretch kicks away the saddle into the rear left. Sounds great but would love to hear the DTS.
Apollo 13 (ntsc)
The DVD may have split surrounds and an LFE channel, but reall the only thing that really separates the PCM track of the laser and the DD5.1 track on the DVD is the split surrounds. The bass is just incredible. The liftoff and re-entry are two places where the plaster starts to come off the walls and your loved-ones are asking you to turn it down or OFF! The sound is far more natural on the laser. The DVD sounds a bit off, it may just be me though I found it not to be as good. The bass was'nt as controlled and there was'nt as much atmosphere.
Days Of Thunder (pal)
One of my all time favorites this one.
For an old'ish movie it has a load of pans, left/ right, up/down, all over the place. Check when the announcer says "gentlemen, start you engines", if you arent deaf when thats over then you have freakishly superhuman ears
Con Air (ntsc)
On a par with the 5.1 track. same power and atmosphere.
Most of the disc I have mentioned above (apart from Con Air) have only pro-logic sound tracks. Since getting a DDEX/DTS THX amp last year (after using a JVC pro-logic HI-fi for years) I havent really listened to to the PCM track of the 5.1 lasers I have.
some others...........
Rock (ntsc)
Armageddon (ntsc)
Clear And Present Danger (pal)
Speed (pal)
Star Wars SpEd (ntsc)
Lion King CAV
Crimson Tide (ntsc)
look forward to your replys guys......... : )

 

[Brendon]

Declan,
Welcome to the party! You'll find the forum to be, as I believe the kids say today, a cool place to hang out.
You're right as far as the PAL Indy set goes, although I do find it *slightly* lacking in the bass department. Swings and roundabouts though, as Raiders is just fine on the sound steering front.
Having messed around with my laser player yesterday (as prompted by this conversation), I was taken aback again over the likes of Easter Parade's PCM track.
The mono soundtrack (remastered and dehissed maybe ?) sounds absolutely glorious coming from the PCM tracks. time to revisit The Band Wagon tonight!
And despite the poor video source, the PCM Stereo of Les Miserables: 10th Anniversary concert laserdisc is still a treat.
*sigh*
I still love my lasers and I don't mind admiting it in public either...
Brendon

 

[Aaron Reynolds]

Leo: I had an epiphany like that when listening to Out of Sight:
I was trying to decide what I was going to do with my system. I had a pretty reasonable Pioneer pro-logic amp that I had been happy with for many years, but through an interesting twist of fate, I ended up with an Ashly FET-500 power amplifier. For those of you who haven't met one of these beasties, it's a theatrical power amp from the early '80s, one of the first to be certified for THX movie theatres. It produces a truly glorious sound. Anyone who's been to the Uptown in Toronto has heard 'em -- they've got a rack full.
Anyhow, I just have one. I set myself up a listening test. From the get-go, it was obvious that the Ashly was a much better amp in terms of sound quality. What astounded me, though, was comparing Out of Sight in pro-logic on the Pioneer and in just plain stereo on the Ashly: I was getting more directional (including "rear") sound from just the two speakers with the Ashly. I turned off DPL on the Pioneer and listened to it with just two speakers, but the Ashly won again. So I sold the Pioneer and bought a nice preamp, and I'm in heaven.
Declan: welcome to the thread, and to HTF! It's always good to have more laserfreaks around.
Brendon: my LD collection has nearly doubled in size this year (I pushed past 300 last month -- eek!) because of all of the clearance sales on the 'net. There is no shame in being a laserfreak. Hell, my blueberry iBook has one of those gold foil THX/Dolby Digital LaserDisc stickers (carefully removed from the shrink wrap of the Star Wars SE box) on it.
A while ago I watched the older widescreen MGM LD of 2001, with the audio routed through my father-in-law's preamp (Audible Illusions?), Threshold power amp, and a pair of vintage Monarch six foot tall electrostatic speakers. Heaven.

 

[Brendon]

Aaron,

Whilst my laser collection doesn't even begin to approach 300, mainly due to getting into laserdisc mid 1997 and concentrating on DVD soon after than, it's good to know the old 12" platters still have life in them yet.

Curious about your MGM 2001 - I have the 25th Anniversary CAV set, which I am only just starting to consider replacing with the reissused Warner Bros disc. The sound, and the image considering its laser, is wonderful! (Going via a Pioneer THX Ultra receiver and M&K speakers).
The CAV set quite easily trounces the original MGM issued DVD of 2001.

All of this was knocked into a cocked hat earlier this year by FINALLY getting to see the restored 35mm print of the film playing at a local cinema. Oh to see a pristine 70mm print in a "good" theater!

Ok, 2001 digression at an end. Back to lasers...

Brendon

 

[Aaron Reynolds]

Brendon: I got my first player in 1992, so I have a five year head-start.
My 2001 is the LD before the 25th anniversary CLV and CAV discs. The picture quality is good, but the 25th anniversary is supposed to have much more stable colour. Actually, I'm looking to eventually pick up both the 25th anniversary CLV and the Criterion CAV. Because I am a freak.
The best movie-going experience I ever had was Apocalypse Now in 70mm at Cinesphere, an IMAX theatre. Gigantic, sharp corner-to-corner, rich, vibrant...and the sound...I had seen it a dozen times before, and it was like a whole new experience.
I hope the 70mm restoration of 2001 makes its way to Cinesphere.

 

[Lyle_JP]

Huh? There is no 25th Anniversary CLV disc of 2001. The LD releases of 2001 break down like this:

* 1st MGM disc (Pan & Scan)
* 2nd MGM disc (Pan & Scan, CX encoding added)
* Criterion Collection CAV
* Criterion Collection CLV
* MGM letterboxed disc (first time transfered from 65mm, but color timing was off)
* MGM 25th Anniversary disc (CAV, made from 65mm, color timimg spot-on)
* MGM Dolby Digital disc (CLV, same transfer as 25th Anniversary, AC-3 added)

I think that's all of them.

-Lyle J.P.

 

[Joel Fontenot]

I have that MGM 25th Anniversary CAV set. Though it's not a house shaker, the directional soundtrack is quite nice.

Joel

 

[Aaron Reynolds]

Lyle, I must be thinking of the MGM DD disc. I recall seeing a gatefold 2001 set with "25th Anniversary" written at the top.
Or was the CAV set in a gatefold? I've always assumed it was in a box.
Anyhow, I want that 25th anniversary video transfer, in CLV, with PCM audio.