Klipsch SUB-12 Subwoofer (1 Viewer)

[BraveHeart123]

I get all the cables from US, currently I have Belkin 15 foot subwoofer cable (very sturdy with thick sheilding and gold plated connectors) and also this 26 feet Chord Crimson Plus ($75) cable I bought from UK, which I am currently using. It's very flexible and easily bends around corners. I have another cable .... dont remember the brand but again that one also I got from US a couple of years back.
Yes YPAO does eq the sub, but I reset it for the sub and take readings on the raw signal. I think I have fried the signal processor on sub amp. It is just not performing as it was a couple of days ago. No wonder why the BFD simulation in excel sheet never matches the response after the filters are set, as I mentioned in a previous post in this thread.
These SUB-12 models are notorious for their BASH amps. Btw I am using a replacement amp on it. I had the same problem when I bought it new, but had it replaced with the new one.
What are the symptoms of a bad sound processor on sub amp???

 

[Robert_J]

Would you believe that I have never used a BASH amp. I have used 10 or so of the regular PE amps (the non-BASH models) but they don't have any internal signal processing outside of the standard gain, crossover & phase.
I'm not familiar with the Klipsch subs but you may be on to something. If it is trying to dynamically adjust the sub then your simulated response will never match the real-world response.
Can you at least test with the other sub cables to eliminate that as the culprit?

 

[BraveHeart123]

I've a plethora of sub cables and tried all of them but sub maintains the status quo. I think I will have to buy a new sub. I have full lineup of REL, Focal JM Lab Electra, and Polk Audio available here. Apart from polk, other two are way too expensive i.e. in access of $3000. Wife's gona kill me. So I wud rather stick with Polk for the time being.
Any comments on Polk Audio DSW Pro 660wi pls!!!

 

[Robert_J]

You mentioned car audio. What is available? Can you build your own sub enclosure?

 

[BraveHeart123]

Pioneer, JBL, Alpine, JL Audio, ... I have one car sub with me. Its a 10" long throw Pioneer 750 watts RMS.
Even if I build my own sub enclosure, what do I do for the amp part. I have a couple of car amps but they wont work for ac voltage.

 

[Robert_J]

The Behringer A-500 is a start. I run the older version of the EP-4000.
The Alpine Type R has been used successfully in home audio. Some JBL and JL Audio subs are also appropriate. Very few of the Pioneer subs will work with good results. They design them to work only in small places.

 

[BraveHeart123]

Alpine Type R is no problem. Can u list down the specs e.g, Model, RMS, PMPO, Driver Size, etc?? Also, are we discussing active subs here or passive?? I assume it's passive but asking is best coz assumption is the mother of all FUs

 

[Robert_J]

The only difference between an active sub and a passive sub is the location of the amp. The active sub has a plate amp built into the enclosure. Passive subs have a stand-alone amp. Since you have great access to Behringer products, I was thinking of going with their amps.
This older model is the one I'm familiar with - http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Ivml30Ykp1Q/s_500SWR1242/Alpine-SWR-1242D.html A dual 4 ohm model paired with an A-500 amp will give you great to awesome bass depending on the enclosure you choose to build.

 

[BraveHeart123]

OK, I have a couple of questions;
How do I convert the operating voltage of sub from 12 Volts (Car) to 230 Volts (Home)?? Do I need a step down external power supply??
Does external amp take care of the Gain/LPF/Phase controls normally found on built-in plate amps on active subs??
Let's say i wana use 2nd order LPF filter (12dB/octave)....what do I do?? Does the external amp take care of that??
Do I control the frequency response externally from BFD??
Can you share the response curves and some pictures of your own DIY sealed and ported subs??
It sounds aming and fun to do all this by hand and I'm anxious to give it a shot and relieve myself of running after expensive subs.

 

[Robert_J]

There are AC to DC converters like this 120v model - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=120-558 You will need one that can supply the amount of amperage your car audio amps require. My Powerbass car amp can pull 120amps at full power. Other people use a car battery (sealed model) and a charger. I don't recommend either method.
Gain - Yes. LFP - No. HPF - No. Phase - No. Phase isn't needed on a good 5.1 receiver since the distance setting is exactly the same thing. LPF is not needed since the 5.1 receiver has a crossover built-in. HPF filter isn't needed on sealed subs.
Most receivers have a 2nd order LPF as part of the crossover. If you need steeper, then you can add an external one. I've even used the low pass part of one of these - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=265-128
My response curve is flat to 17hz, use usable bass down to 12hz. All controlled from my BFD.
Here's a 12" sub with a Behringer amp on top of it and a DIY speaker on top of it. The Driver is a TC Sounds TC2+ 12". The sub to the right is a TC Sounds TC-3000 15" in a test box. The port is plugged with a towel.

Here's another TC-3000 example - http://www.danmarx.org/audioinnovation/tc3000.html
Here's a ported sub example - http://www.danmarx.org/audioinnovation/tcsounds.html
Both are great designs. I use them as examples of construction techniques. Also, here are some plans for 12" enclosures. Many different subs will work in them. http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/SubDuction-plans-290307.pdf

 

[Mike Frezon]

I'm getting the sense this thread is about to gain new life and head off an another whole new adventure!

 

[BraveHeart123]

Yes it will inshaAllah....

 

[BraveHeart123]

Thanx Robert for the help and tonnes of advice along the way. I guess I have some brain cells and will try to put em to some use and not be victim at the hands of not finding what I want. I will do my pre-req study on how to go about DIY sub project. Will keep posting here on the forum and bug u from time to time.
For a start, since I have already fried my sub amp, I was thinking why not use the driver. Only the amp is busted. It's a 300 Watts (650 PMPO) 12" paper cone driver and in perfect shape. What do you think....can I use this as my first test driver?? I dont care even if I end up blowing it.

 

[Robert_J]

That is a good start. One channel of an EP-2000 would really get that thing going.
And don't think you are bugging me. If I didn't want to answer questions, I wouldn't hang out here so much. It's not like you can track me down if I stop logging on. And I only do that on some weekends and vacation.

 

[BraveHeart123]

Shall I focus on sealed or ported?? I prefer sealed coz my first experience with ported (Klipsch SUB-12) is terrible. I think port tuning is more cumbersome. Sealed is the way to go for a start.
I need FR between 20Hz - 200Hz for a front firing configuration in sealed box. Based on my driver (12" / 300 RMS / 650 PMPO) and desired FR, I'd be glad if you can pen down the box dimensions both internal (chamber design / mdf W x D x L / braces) and external.
Also, I just went to a local store that carries Behringer and Yamaha professional gear. They are out of stock on Behringer EP2000; rather they have two models available in Yamaha Stereo amps i.e. P5000 and P7000. Looking at the specs and cost I lean towards P5000. Pls check and advise if I buy it. I think it is future proof with enuf firepower to belt out 1500 Watts in bridged mode. What do u reckon??

 

[Robert_J]

The only way to get 1500 w in bridged mode is get the EP-4000. The published specs are peak at 1khz. The power supply isn't large enough to push their published specs at 20hz. It will do 800w / channel into 2 ohms at 20hz or about 1500w / bridged at 4 ohms. 99% of the time you will reach max excursion well before reaching the amp's limits.
Sealed is a good start since you don't need a subsonic filter.
The Yamahas look good but cost twice as much as the Behringer for the same wattage. If you want to future proof, Crown amps are way to go but I can't justify the costs.
Pick one of the subduction designs in the PDF above. If you go with the larger of the 2, then don't cut the holes for the ports. In the rear, don't cut the opening for the amp since you are using an external amp. The plans use some of the best construction techniques I've seen.

 

[BraveHeart123]

If you go with the larger of the 2, then don't cut the holes for the ports. In the rear, don't cut the opening for the amp since you are using an external amp.

Which ports?? Are you talking about the holes on the two internal bracings at right angles to eachother to hold the magnet??
Also, the driver size shown for the sealed box diagram in SubDuction pdf file is for 16" cone. I have 12" driver and all the measurements would be different in my case.

 

[Robert_J]

In the PDF, there are actually 3 designs. 1 sealed and 2 ported. The ported designs are so close that I consider them the same. If you need a larger, sealed box then use that design but don't cut the holes for the ports.
No, the driver in the sealed design is the same as the other two. The "subduction" driver made by Creative Sound Solutions of Canada was a 12" driver. Here is the technical datasheet for it - http://meniscusaudio.com/images/CSS-SD12-subduction-data.pdf . They later added a 15" and a 10" model but that PDF covers the 12".
As far as your measurements being different from the design, this is all guess right now. Until you have the Thiele/Small parameters ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small ) for a driver, we don't have any idea how to design an enclosure. One of the reasons I asked about the car audio drivers available to you was to find a driver brand that is popular here. Alpine has known parameters and it is something I can put into Unibox and simulate enclosures to find the best one that will meet your needs. The Klipsch driver you have is an unknown. Unless you want to pull the parameters then we have to guess about the enclosure. I use Woofer Tester 3 ( http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=390-804 ) to pull the parameters of the drivers I build.

 

[BraveHeart123]

OK I get your point.... Alpine Type-R SWR-1242D it is.
I will get the same driver. You know the parameters of this driver. Bear with me but this is my first DIY sub project.
This driver aint that expensive here, i guess it's under $150. But to run this I need to buy external amp, which is expensive. So I need it to be absolutely dead on the first time.
Keeping in mind Alpine Type R 1242D and required FR (20Hz to 200Hz+), can u do the sealed box maths for me?? I'm sure I can pull off later projects with relative ease, but I need help on this one to kick start.
Update: Can you point out any website where I can find published T/S parameters of Pioneer and JBL car subs, as an alternative to Alpine Type R?? They are relatively easy to find around here

 

[Robert_J]

It's your first DIY project but probably not your last.
I'll design the best enclosure possible for this sub. $150 is about the same price over here but our Behringer amps are pretty cheap. If you have other brands available like Nady, they will work as well.
Check their websites. I know that JBL/Harmon International publish full specs for JBL subs. Their GTi models rock. They use a split coil / low distortion design. The Alpine is a standard overhung design. Just look for manuals like this - http://support.alpine-usa.com/products/documents/OM_SWR-1242D.PDF . I need the details that are on the bottom of page 4. Using that PDF, I'll start the process using Unibox. If you have Excel, download it and give it a try. According to Dan Wiggins, it's the best free subwoofer design program out there. Very close to the results he gets using L.E.A.P.