Kenwood VR-6070 closeout at BB: worth it? (1 Viewer)

[Lee Carbray]

I think the point he was trying to make is that we're talking about a receiver that sold for $500 originally and is THX select having crappy amplification to the surround speakers.

He has the 6060 which was around $300 and I understand he is complaining about the speaker amplification. But he is complaining that it does not sound like a separates system. What does he want for $300-$500. If he can compare it to a receiver in the same price range that he has heard and in his opinion sounds better I will be happy. Of course only if I forget about the fact that his receiver is defective to start with.

 

[Steve_Moo]

You are not following me. The SURROUND BACK the last item on the power spec is rated at 0.09% THD and the L/R Surrounds(which are different then the BACK Surround) are rated at 0.7%.

The surround back would be you 6th speaker you add and it has a better THD then your L/R surrounds. That is what I am saying makes no sense.

(THESE ARE YOUR SURROUNDS POWER RATING)
- Surround Power (LSurround/RSurround): 100 Watts + 100 Watts (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.7% THD, 8 ohms)


(THIS IS THE SURROUND BACK POWER RATING)
- Surround Power (Selectable--Subwoofer/Surround Back): 100 Watts (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.09% THD, 8 ohms)

Do you see what I am saying.

 

[RobWil]

He has the 6060 which was around $300 and I understand he is complaining about the speaker amplification.

You're right....the starter of the thread was talking about the 6070. The CAPT has a 6060.
So yeah! What are you complaining about Capt???

 

[RobWil]

POWER RATINGS
- Stereo Power: 100 Watts per Channel (Left/Right, 20Hz - 20kHz, 0.09% THD, 8 ohms)
- Surround Power (Center): 100 Watts (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.09% THD, 8 ohms)
- Surround Power (Left/Right): 100 Watts + 100 Watts (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.09% THD, 8 ohms)
- Surround Power (LSurround/RSurround): 100 Watts + 100 Watts (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.7% THD, 8 ohms)
- Surround Power (Selectable--Subwoofer/Surround Back): 100 Watts (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.09% THD, 8 ohms)

OK...I know I was wrong about my math and the Capt having a 6070 but I think I'm right here. Come on man...you gotta give me 1 out of 3! If I'm wrong 3 outta 3 I'm going to have to just end it all right now! :frowning:

Ok...lets disect this:
Line 1 says: Stereo Power: 100 Watts per Channel (Left/Right, 20Hz - 20kHz, 0.09% THD, 8 ohms)

That's an easy one.....2 channel mode only, those are the specs. The other 4 channels are not in use at all.

Now the next 3 lines are talking about when all 6 channels are running at the same time.

Line 2 : Surround Power (Center): 100 Watts (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.09% THD, 8 ohms)
Talking about the center channel in surround mode, of course.

Line 3 : Surround Power (Left/Right): 100 Watts + 100 Watts (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.09% THD, 8 ohms)
Talking about the FRONT Left and Right during surround mode.
It doesn't say Surround L and Surround R.

Line 4 : Surround Power (LSurround/RSurround): 100 Watts + 100 Watts (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.7% THD, 8 ohms)
NOW it's talking about the surround L and R during surround mode.

Line 5 is self explanatory.

I agree it's confusing, but I think the point is that the specs can be different for the front left/right in stereo mode as compared to the front left/right when the amp is having to power all the other channels.

 

[Steve_Moo]

Thats exactely right and don't you find it weird that the surrounds (L/R) are rated at 0.7% THD and the Surround Back is rated at 0.09% THD. You would think that all 3 surrounds would be rated the same or at least the Surround Back would be the 0.7% and the L/R would be the 0.09%.

 

[RobWil]

don't you find it weird that the surrounds (L/R) are rated at 0.7% THD and the Surround Back is rated at 0.09% THD.

I hadn't thought of that but now that you mention it...yeah, that seems odd. :frowning:

 

[Al Holland]

As a previous owner of the 6070 I do not understand all of the chat about distortion. Pay no attention to specs, just take the receiver home and listen before forming your opinion. I have owned almost all brands of receivers, most of them costing 3 to 10 times what a 6070 costs. The 6070 performed as good as any in home theater but was not as good in stereo music. It does however make an excellent preamp.
I have an Interga 8.2 in the closet because I went the seperates route. Prior to that I had a B&K 307. The 6070 would be my choice if I were still using a receiver.

 

[RobWil]

Pay no attention to specs, just take the receiver home and listen before forming your opinion.

That's the best advice that can be given. I took 5 different receivers home from Circuit City...two Kenwood 6050's, an H/K 320, an H/K 520 and an Onkyo TX-SR797. I ended up taking 4 back and ordering one similar to the Onkyo on ebay. 30 days is plenty of time to thoroughly test to make sure it's what you want. After all they ain't cheap, and unless you have a buttload of money (and/or an easy honey!) you're going to be stuck with it for awhile.

 

[StevieP]

RobWil,

EXACTLY!

 

[StevieP]

OK ALL,
How can the the 6070 make a good pre/pro without any adjustable bass management? And for that matter, EQ ?

 

[ScottRCapt]

First off, I never complained or compared or tried to say that I thought that my Kenwood VR-6060 would perform like multi-thousand dollar separates. If anyone would bother to READ my posts, I was simply explaining that THD has more to do with quality of sound than some of you may be aware of.

Excerpt from Crutchfield Re: VR-6070

Note: The Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) rating for the Left Surround and Right Surround amplifiers is 0.7%. The THD for the Surround Back/Subwoofer amplifier is 0.09%.
http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S...fo&i=113VR6070

Excerpt Dallas Semi-Conductor

"THD specification plays a critical role in determining the quality or fidelity of audio signals passing through or generated by audio systems. Thus, when designing audio systems, importance must be placed on selecting the proper components and board layout to minimize THD"
http://www.soundtech.com/product/faq.htm

And for the Math aficionados out there, here is your page of explanations:
http://www.ece.uvic.ca/499/2002a/group07/testing.html

So, somebody is paying attention to Distortion...

My point when I brought up the subject of "Separates" is... whether the person who owns them has higher power than before they “upgraded” or lower power than before they went to a pre-amp/ power-amp system, they all agree that placing an extra piece of equipment in the signal path has improved the sound across the board. This has to indicate that the separates as a combined unit, even with the extra cabling and the extra opportunity to add distortion seem to always sound better whether they have higher or lower power ratings than the single "receiver" unit did before. This indicates a difference in THD between separates and the previous receiver. So THD does make a difference. Distortion is NOT good!

Next: I did not buy my VR-6060 recently when Kenwood USA has new models coming to market and last years inventory has been dumped on the market. Also, Kenwood USA never promoted or marketed the VR-6060 or the VR-6070 as “entry level $300 receivers”. When I bought my VR-6060, the retail price for the VR-6070 was nearly $800. It could be bought for less, but that’s what Kenwood told the public it was worth. Kenwood has recently changed the retail price on the website to a vague $600-$700, still not an entry-level amount. I also believe that only a very few VR-6070’s were purchased for under $300 and those few buyers were told that their units were refurbished or they bought floor models at Best Buy. I certainly paid more than $300 for mine, and again, if you bother to read my previous posts, I said that I made that mistake and I have learned my lesson. I did not expect to get a receiver that sounded like a Sunfire Cinema Grand, I also did not expect to get a receiver that clipped out and shut down on overload during demanding parts of XXX on DVD.

Lastly: I am sorry to have seemingly stirred up such a hornet’s nest in this thread. My intention was merely to warn others to not make the same mistake I did, and end up buying two receivers within a year’s time. The last Receiver I bought was a Kenwood and that was in 1988. One of the reasons I bought this Kenwood was to keep my Kenwood CD Player and Tape Deck. Unfortunately the system control has changed, even though the salesman had told me my older units would work fine with the new 6060, and I ended up not even being able to use my other components. (The old components did not have any remote capability, they all were wired into the receiver via a system control and the receiver remote controlled all components. The new system control is not backward compatible as I had been told it was.)

Once I figured out that my old components were not part of the future, even though I had kept brand loyalty, I started buying Sony components.

I now have a Sony CDP CX-450 400-Disk CD Jukebox and a Sony DVP DX-850 200-DVD Jukebox. So it follows that since I am not happy with my Kenwood that I am buying a Sony DA-4ES Receiver to match. I also may be replacing my Main Cerwin Vegas with Definative BP-10B’s in the near future.

So please guys, many pardons, if you love your Kenwood, more power to you! Just don’t tell me I am FOS, because I will produce the facts when I make an argument. I am moving on with my system… Onward and upward, the adventure continues…

 

[Lee Carbray]

Scott, I am sorry this and the other thread turned out the way it did as well. I think I was in a bad mood yesterday or something.

Back to this THD thing. I agree with you. If you want me to READ your post which I did, you have to read mine too. However the difference between a separates system and an integrated system is effected by much more then just a lower THD. I bet if you went from your new Sony with .05% to say a Rotel RMB1066 amp with .06% you would notice a difference and if you think it is due to the difference in THD your kidding your self.

You also never said whether you talked to Kenwood about your over heating problem. This is important for us to know.


Oh by the way I did your test last night. Let me know if I did it right. Had it on Prologic mode so all channels would be on and with no cd playing turned up the volume to the max. I heard nothing at all, not even a slight hiss. A though crossed my mind as I was doing it though. That is, isn't THD only present with a signal? So if any noise was heard with no signal present it would be just that, noise.

 

[ScottRCapt]

Lee,

I am aware that there is more involved in the manufacture of separates than the combined "do everything unit" known as a receiver. In a pre-amp/power-amp situation, you have units designed to do one thing and to do it very well. I have owned and sold these types of systems way back in the Stone Age on analog electronics when there were many more ways for noise (via turntable cartridges etc) to enter the signal path. I never indicated a separates system should be compared head to head to any "receiver". What I did indicate was that when people do upgrade to separates they all say they hear more "detail" in the music or HT sources they listen to. This happens, whether the prior receiver unit had more or less power per channel. The answer to why this happens IMHO is not a magical thing. It has to do with the difference in amount of noise present between the quality circuits of a separates system and a do all receivers. The manufacturers usually represent this noise with a rating called THD.

Additionally, my argument was based on the fact that 0.7% is a high level of THD. I never claimed that any human ear can determine the difference between .05% and .06% THD in any unit or combination of units in a system.

I just re-tested my Kenwood in the fashion that I stated previously. And in fact, it has less noise present than it did before. I made some changes in speaker wire and have the unit running much cooler now. I would bet the temperature change is the reason. There is still noise apparent in the stereo mode and it is a hiss.

You are correct that THD is distortion of a signal. THD is one of the few quantitative specs that manufactures present to the public that represents the amount of noise in the unit they are selling. THD and S/N (Signal to Noise) ratio, S/N ratio not always being present in specs, I based my argument on THD for a general understanding of what the difference is between say .7% and .05%, (there is a large difference, I think you would agree). The hiss created when you turn up an amp (if present at all) is noise created by circuits inside the unit and picked up by outside sources. Once a signal is added (in the form of music or a surround sound movie), the noise already present in the unit distorts the signal. When the signal is distorted by noise or what now called "distortion" it is measured as by the manufacturer as THD.

I never once said my Kenwood was a defective unit. I have no idea who came to my house and diagnosed the problem with it. I have had a less than satisfactory experience with my Kenwood, because 1.) It has weak component video bandwidth @ 10Mhz and I am running all of my video through the receiver. 2) The unit runs hot. I am not the only person in HTF to mention this. 3.) I like to play action movies and Rock music, both of them at high levels. When the Kenwood is processing DVD video signals and DTS Surround Sound at high levels it tend to want to shut down on me. I never said this was the fault of my unit, I assumed from the specs that all of the units in this family would react similarly if presented with my setup and listening taste. I placed all the blame on myself, for not having done my homework well enough when I made my purchase, and for being old enough and supposedly wise enough to know better.
:b

 

[Steve_Moo]

Can any one test this THD out to get a reading. I'm still convinced its a typo on the Kenwood website which is where every Online Seller gets there spec's from. Usually all speakers in surround mode will have the same THD%. And whats really weird is that the surround back channel is rated at 0.09% but the Surrounds are rated at .7%.

Also anyone know what criteria Receivers have to meet for THD% to get a THX Certification Stamp. Not a big fan of THX but they do have stipulations before they will tag a Receiver.

I'm still saying its a typo unless someone can test THD out.

 

[Rajeev_s]

Check the THD tested on the 6070 by S&V.
Tests
Its well below 0.7%

 

[Lee Carbray]

I never claimed that any human ear can determine the difference between .05% and .06% THD in any unit or combination of units in a system.

In a indirect way Scott you have claimed the difference between separates and receivers is THD. My example was to point out that the Rotel although having more THD then the Sony(on paper anyway), it would still perform better.I realize the subjective nature of that last comment. I was going based on the assumption that a well built separate systems will out perform an integrated receiver in sound quality. You said yourself they "all" hear more detail. I hope that is not too far fetched.

Maybe we can agree on this. The difference in sound quality between a separates system and an integrated system is correlated to the amount of noise produced by said systems. The separates producing less noise then the integrated systems. However this noise is not reflected in the stated THD value of the manufacturer. Therefore, stated THD numbers cannot be used as a reliable source of comparison between the two systems.

Have a good weekend.

 

[RobWil]

)

Check the THD tested on the 6070 by S&V.

Distortion @ 1w - 8 ohms (THD+N %, 1 kHz) = .03
Manufacturer specs = .06%

These are different ratings and don't apply to the surround L/R at full power, 20Hz-20kHz, into 8ohm's, at .7%.

 

[Andy_SB]

Scott, I for one am sorry that you had a bad experience with your Kenwood and if I had the same problems you did, I would probably be picking on the unit as well.

However, my experience with the 6060 has been totally different.

I knew from my prepurchase research that the component video bandwidth was limited to 10mhz. A weakness, for sure, but I only enough component inputs on my TV to use direct connections so I knew I would not need to use the switching feature.

I also knew that the specs listed the THD for the surround channels at 0.7%. I thought this was somewhat high, and it worried me. After doing some listening tests, however, I decided I could not discern an audible difference in the surround channels vs. my old Yamaha receiver or my dad's Denon.

These two weaknesses were overcome by the relatively low price of the 6060, its otherwise excellent feature set at this price point, and (to my ears) excellent performance for HT and decent performance for 2-channel music.

I have also not had any overheating problems with my 6060, although I live in an apartment so I have not *really* pushed its limits for any extended periods.

Overall, I've been more than satisfied with my purchase. I'm sorry you weren't happy with yours. I am sure you will enjoy the DA4ES, I have read many great things about it on the forum and would have considered it had it not been way out of my price range.

- Andy

 

[ScottRCapt]

Lee,

A good weekend to you as well.

I must say that your comment that I "abuse" my system was a bit harsh. I listen to music and watch Digital video much in the same manner as my brother. He happens to own a Sony DA3ES, and has been very happy with it. I was not impressed with his prior Sony units, but when he set up that DA-3ES I was placed in a position of "Shock and Awe". The first DVD he showed me with his system, was “Blackhawk Down”. After the show, I truly felt as though I could not have seen or heard it better in a real theater. The levels of detail produced with his Sony are quite impressive, after "Blackhawk Down" I felt almost as if I had been there, I was emotionally drained because I was so far into that movie. I had never experienced anything like that before. My Kenwood cannot come close to that experience; it just does not have the fidelity. My brother is very proud of his equipment, and no one standing near him would ever say that he abused any of it. I don't think I abused the Kenwood, unless you consider using 6.1 channels powered through 12-gauge wire to brand new matched Cerwin Vega Speakers is abuse.

However this noise is not reflected in the stated THD value of the manufacturer. Therefore, stated THD numbers cannot be used as a reliable source of comparison between the two systems.

THD stated by the manufacturer is the ONLY indicator that they give you to measure relative noise. It is how some of us people compare the quality of units they cannot listen too. That’s what we have to live with. It's an imperfect world. What can I say?

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this...

P.S. Thanks for the kind words Andy... I think the 4ES will suit me fine, and if not, then I can add an amp later on down the line, and become gentrified like the rest of these here folks...

 

[Al Holland]

There is an old saying here in Tennessee: only believe 1/2 of what you see and nothing that you hear. This especially applies when making an audio or video purchase. You can get some really heated debates on these subjects: seperates vs receivers, brand x cable vs brand y cabling, coax vs optical. I think that you get the point. Every one can support their argument with something that they have read.
Any credible article must be supported with criterion obtained from tests made with some sort of instrument. Very few if any humans can see or hear what these instruments measure unless there distortion is off the charts.
I switched to seperates after many years of buying, swapping, or selling receivers. I can't exactly explain why but the seperates produce a better sound to me. I have experiemented with inter connects and speaker cables and yes I could hear a difference. I have learned to accept this and not try to figure a reason for the differences. I have also learned that I will be using my equipment so the only opinion that really matters is mine. I am enjoying the listening much more than ever.
As example: Denon is preferred by numerous people, to me they are bright and fatiguing. I owned a Sony 777ES that cost about $1500. It had a buzz that was very audible (the 6070 did not). My B&K 307 was replaced by the dealer within 30 days (amps failed). I had a $2000 Marantz with a hiss in the surrounds, this is not uncommon in the receivers and seperates that I have owned or heard. I doubt that modern day receivers in the above $400 have enough distortion to be audible.
Again, take it home for a trial. You will learn so much more by doing this than by reading all of the articles thay you find.