JFK Assassination 40th Anniversary Thread (1 Viewer)

[RobertR]

I think that was a newly produced additional "episode" of the ludicrous series, The Men Who Killed Kennedy.

Yes, I think I mentioned earlier that they painted LBJ as some kind of crazy right winger, based solely on the fact that he was from Texas and knew Texas businessmen. Anyone who knows Johnson's record knows how silly that is.

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

Well LBJ was a man whose ego and ambition knew almost no bounds, but this story doesn't make sense. Did anyone see the show in question? What was the theory that was presented?

From my point of view, why would LBJ be in the motorcade (about 3 cars back IIRC) if he knew bullets would be flying from the multiple gunmen of most conspiracy theories? And more to the point, if he had done this why would he have dropped out in 1968? His "I will not run" speech is one of the few that I remember from my high school days. It was kind of freaky watching him age visibly during his presidency.

 

[RobertR]

What was the theory that was presented?

That LBJ was the puppet of right wing Texas businessmen who were out to get Kennedy, supposedly because he expressed opposition to the oil depletion allowance. Aside from the fact that EVERY President has political enemies (meaning Kennedy was not "special" in this regard), you're right that it's ludicrous to suggest that Johnson would allow himself to be shot as part of the plot.

 

[EricKH]

Eric,


Actually Chris is correct. The Warren report is in a sense the eveidence that would have been used to convice Oswald. In a court case as a defence attorney all I would be required to do is cast reasonable doubt on the government's case. It would not be incumbent on me to present an alternative expanation.

So, the burden is on you to answer objections since you are defending the prosecution's case. If reasonable doubt is cast on your case, then in a separate venue alternate theories could be presented.

In my mind there are then 2 questions:

1. Is the Warren commission hypothesis true?
2. Is there a vaild alternate theory that is more credible.

For me, there are still too many questions left unanswered by the Warren Commissions findings. Your inability to answer all of Chris' questions in a clear manner is an example of this. There is still reasonable doubt.

Where I agree with you, Eric, is the plausibility of the alternative elplanations. As you correctly point out, no tangible evidence exists to support them beyond a reasonable doubt

So what I am left with is a case with no clean closure.

 

[Chris Knox]

Precisely!

 

[Cees Alons]

No, that doesn't make sense at all.

I see that reasoning too often, unfortunately. Discussing theories is NOT the same as having a trial.

In our system we find it worse to have an innocent person found guilty than have a guilty person go free. We're not absolute in seeking the "truth". We're trying to do justice.
Furthermore, it's often very difficult for a single accused to prove he/she 'didn't do it', which is why our judicial system requires the proof that they did it - not the opposite.

However, when discussing theories (either scientific theories or theories about history) the same weighing does not apply. A historian who thinks that Abraham Lincoln was murdered by John Wilkes Booth is not prosecuting Booth, but is trying to find the historical truth.


Cees

 

[ChuckSolo]

How come nobody has mentioned Carlos Marcello? Remember that Joseph Kennedy was associated with a lot of Mob guys back during prohibition. I can actually swallow the theory that the mob with New Orleans boss Marcello taking the lead rubbed out JFK as retribution for Brother Bobby's mob investigations during that time. To a lot of those old time mobsters, Meyer Lansky, Lucky Luciano, etc., Joe Kennedy was one of their own. That alone could have justified getting rid of one of his heirs.

 

[Chris Knox]

However, when discussing theories (either scientific theories or theories about history) the same weighing does not apply. A historian who thinks that Abraham Lincoln was murdered by John Wilkes Booth is not prosecuting Booth, but is trying to find the historical truth.

And a historian who thinks LHO might of at the very least had some help is not prosecuting the help but is trying to find the historical truth as well.

Give me a break...

 

[Erik.Ha]

Ive studied this thing quite a bit over the years, and I am 98% convinced Oswald acted alone.

Only three things have ever bothered me that I've never found a decent expalnation to (nor am I likely to since all the parties are dead):

1. Oswald shoots the president and, by sheer luck really, not only gets out of the building without getting caught, but makes it all the way to the safety of his home...

...And then LEAVES??? ON FOOT??? Where the hell was he going? He'd just gotten away scott-free with the crime of the century. You'd think he would lay low for a while? He knows the gun ISNT in his name (he uses an alias to buy it) and it will take quite a while to match any fingerprints... but he leaves the safety of his house? Doesn't make sense.

2. The president has just been shot. Nobody gets a good look at the shooter. Certainly not a good enough one (from that distance) to give an accurate APB description. Every Dallas policeman is rushing to the crime scene or the hospital.

Yet Tippet, MILES away from the crime scene, stops Oswald, who by eyewitness accounts is simply walking down the street minding his own business... WHY?

Is Tippet some sort of psychic cop? Oswald isn't carrying a Deer rifle, and he has even changed clothes since the shooting... but Tippet stops him...

I can count the number of times I have been stopped by police while I was out walking... ZERO.. NEVER has it happened to me... or anybody else I know.

Yet, with all the commotion going on that day, Tippet MIRACULOUSLY finds the shooter, miles away from the scene of the crime based on NO evidence. I'd love to see MIT run a statistical analysis of the odds of this happening given the population of the city of Dallas.

3. The president has just been shot. A Dallas policeman has also just been shot. The Entire Dallas Police force is now working those two crimes, yet dozens of Dallas police officers show up at the local movie theater when the owner calls to complain that somebody went in without paying??? You would think they had higher priorites than chasing turnstyle jumpers that particular day? And low and behold, that's the guy?

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

 

[Glenn Overholt]

It doesn't, and never did - for that matter, ever make any sense to me either. That is why I suggested earlier the possibility of Oswald having a double. It helps to explain some of your questions. As to which one was the real one, and even if they caught the real one, or the actual shooter, probably goes unexplained.

I don't remember any records showing that they did a powder burn check on the one that they captured, but if he did change, and had gloves on, they wouldn't, and just not mention it. A big part of why the Warren Report either left out - or didn't know what really happened.

Glenn

 

[Erik.Ha]

Oswald did not have powder on his hands (as I recall) but did have it on his cheek, consistent with firing a bolt action rifle.

I dont see how a "double" would explain the 'most miraculous police investigation in modern criminal justice.'

 

[Cees Alons]

Chris,

And a historian who thinks LHO might of at the very least had some help is not prosecuting the help but is trying to find the historical truth as well.

Yes, you get it. So all he has to do then is make it damn probable, given the known facts, that such help existed and try to get as specific as possible, so other historians can judge his thesis.


Frankly, Chris, why you add "Give me a break..." at that point of the conversation, escapes me.


Cees

 

[David Von Pein]

Hell, the level of circumstantial evidence against OJ Simpson was mounds above LHO and he was acquitted!

I rest my case, Your Honor.
Mister Mason, your witness.

 

[David Von Pein]

3. The president has just been shot. A Dallas policeman has also just been shot. The Entire Dallas Police force is now working those two crimes, yet dozens of Dallas police officers show up at the local movie theater when the owner calls to complain that somebody went in without paying??? You would think they had higher priorites than chasing turnstyle jumpers that particular day? And low and behold, that's the guy?

It wasn't the fact he "didn't buy a ticket" that sparked such an interest. Shoe salesman John Brewer told Theater worker Julia Postal to call the police because Brewer had seen a man "acting suspiciously" on Jefferson Boulevard soon after the shooting of both JFK & Officer Tippit.

It's not surprising in the least (IMO) that many police cars would swarm the Theater in this instance...especially when you factor in that Tippit was slain just a couple of blocks from where this "suspicious" man (Oswald) was seen entering the theater.

I've never been a cop. But I know for certain they dislike (intensely) having one of their own gunned down in their city streets like a dog. I think the arsenal of cars swarming the Texas Theater makes perfect sense in this scenario. Nothing "phychic" about it. Just pure and simple "human nature" and following up an all-too-obvious citizen's tip.

 

[Erik.Ha]

Makes perfect sense to me.He used an alias, true. But he WORKED IN THE BUILDING from which shots were fired at the President. And was the only worker WHO WAS INSIDE THE BUILDING AT 12:30 PM to not be present at Roy Truly's roll call.

True, but he had no idea there was a "roll call" and that he was the only person who missed it, since he wasn't there.

Human nature in a case like this would be to go somewhere you feel "safe" and hunker down. Usually that's your own home. Perhaps he was walking somewhere he felt "more safe" but where, and why walk? Why not just call a cab or hop a bus? I know Dallas PD were grabbing people off the street from around the crime scene, but miles away from the crime scene seems a bit of a stretch to me. Perhaps this intervening shooting you mentioned will explain it...

I'm actually not a "pro-conspiracy" guy... I think the most plausible explination is that Oswald had made himself and his leftist-leaning political ideas as known to the Dallas authorities as he had the New Orleans authorities, and it was a case of "round up the usual suspects" something not unheard of in the south in 1964. I think Oswald may have become a suspect the minute the first shot was fired. Now, whether they just got lucky and the 'usual suspect' turned out to be the guy, or somebody else committed the perfect crime and the police framed Oswald for political expediancy, and to save face, I'm not sure. Like I said, I'm 98% sure he did it. I beleive in a single gunman with no help. Whether Oswald was that single gunman... I'm not quite positive, and it's only because I am SUCH a skeptic that I don't beleive in coincidences.

 

[David Von Pein]

I'm not familiar with the "elm & Houston" shooting. Can you provide more details on this?

This was the JFK killing.
The police radio broadcast, at one point, said "The suspect in the shooting at Elm & Houston is an unknown white male, (approx.) age 30, 5-feet-10, 165 pounds."

 

[Eric Paddon]

"True, but he had no idea there was a "roll call" and that he was the only person who missed it, since he wasn't there."

What does this mean? You're working on the job, there is no announcement that workers can go home and you just "assume" its okay to be the only employee in the building who doesn't stay? Sorry, but that is extremely farfetched considering that the only person who leaves owns the rifle on the 6th floor with his fingerprints on it (that was confirmed by HSCA fingerprint expert Vincent Scalice in 1993), and was seen by Howard Brennan firing his last shot is Lee Harvey Oswald.

"Perhaps he was walking somewhere he felt "more safe" but where, and why walk? Why not just call a cab or hop a bus?"

Oswald first took a bus and then a cab to get back to his rooming house and he still had the other half of his bus transfer in his pocket entitling him to get back on a bus again at some point. Was he walking to where he could get another bus? That was put forth by David Belin of the WC staff. Or maybe he was planning to murder General Walker, whom he'd failed to do the job properly on before, and whose house was in the general direction of where he was walking at the time. We'll never know, but his actions are not the mark of a man who was innocent, and his murder of Officer Tippit is the ultimate proof of that.

 

[David Von Pein]

Eric P. .... In this passage by Erik Ha. .....

True, but he had no idea there was a "roll call" and that he was the only person who missed it, since he wasn't there.

.... Erik was referring to the fact that Tippit "had no idea there was a roll call" at the Depository. Which might very well be true. I'm guessing the DPD Radio tranmissions probably didn't elaborate on the fact that Truly did a roll call and found XXX number of people missing, including Oswald.

However, Erik Ha's point is still meaningless (IMO), in the context of what was happening in Dallas on 11/22 after 12:30 PM.

Tippit was obligated to stop Oswald on the street at 1:15 PM, after just minutes before having heard the description of the "suspect in the shooting at Elm & Houston" being relayed over the police radio. A description which certainly FIT the man Tippit stopped -- Lee Oswald.

 

[Erik.Ha]

Erik was referring to the fact that Tippit "had no idea there was a roll call" at the Depository.

No, he had it right... The argument was made that since Oswald "missed the rollcall" he would have to begin running immidiately. My point was, he would never have KNOWN there was a rollcall, that he was the only one who missed it, and that that fact would matter in all that chaos, because HE WASN'T there to know it even occured. Thus, that isn't an argument as to why he left the safety of his home once he was "reletively safe". The rifle was ordered under an assumed name. They wouldn't pin it on Oswald for hours after he was arrested, and then only because he had the fake ID he used to buy it on his person when he was arrested.

My contention still is, if Oswald STAYS in his house, they dont link him to the shooting for DAYS later, if they EVER can. So the question remains... WHY leave? Where was he going? How was he going to get there? How did they get HIS description so quickly and perfectly? And in a city the size of Dallas, how does Tippet happen upon him the way he does? Id still love to see the statistical probablilty of Tippit happening upon the ACTUAL murderer, in a city the size of DALLAS, with THAT plain vanilla description, AFTER the murderer has reached the safety of his home... Is it POSSIBLE its just a series of coincidences? I suppose, but Im just not a big beleiver in coincidences.

Again, I think Oswald was the shooter... Im just amazed by the events AFTER the shooting. The unanswered questions I have about those events is where I feel nagging doubts about the conclusions reached by the WC.

 

[David Von Pein]

So the question remains...WHY leave?

I can see where you're coming from here. BUT .... If you had just killed the President just a few miles from your own residence, from your own workplace no less, wouldn't you feel like putting some Earth between yourself and the murder site (asap)? I think I might want to.

Plus -- The fact that Oswald did not live in his OWN place, alone, might have entered into his "fleeing fast" decision-making process as well.

The roominghouse he rented at 1026 N. Beckley had other tenants coming & going, plus landlady Johnson and housekeeper Earlene Roberts, who did actually see Oswald enter and leave the house at 1:00 PM on 11/22 (just as she turned on the TV to start watching the non-stop TV coverage of the assassination events). In a matter of less than 1 hour, Mrs. Roberts would be informed of the general description of the suspect AND the fact that the shots were believed to have come from Oswald's workplace.

Although, it's possible Roberts, nor anyone else at 1026 Beckley, hadn't the slightest idea that Oswald worked at the Depository, being he was so tight-lipped and quiet. However, it's quite possible that *someone* there had knowledge of where he worked. And, if so, staying there would have proven as risky as running I believe.

Sorry, Erik, I misunderstood your earlier post.