It's TRUE: HD DVD supports 1080i via Component Video, not just HDMI (1 Viewer)

[Ken_F]

The problem is no one really wants to build a $500 player for either format at this point. Toshiba is selling their player at close to break even, perhaps even a small loss, to establish market share. It is a full-featured player, and none of those companies you mentioned are interested in selling a $1000-$1500 player with a similar feature set that won't sell. In an interview a few months ago, an executive from Panasonic said flat out that it wasn't possible to design a profitable first-generation player for sale at $500.

In contrast, on Blu-ray, Sony has encouraged CE vendors to price their product at levels that net significant margins. Every announced BD player is priced at $999 to $1899. The components in HD-DVD and BD players are almost identical, yet if CE companies stick in a BD-ROM reader, they can price it at $1000-$1500, because that's what everyone else is doing. If they stick in a HD DVD-ROM reader, they've got to charge closer to $500 if they want to sell product, because that's what the competition is doing.

You will see more HD-DVD players from other companies when:

• the technology exists to allow others to really differentiate their product (technology doesn't really exist to do that yet) in a substantiative way to justify a premium-priced product; or
  
• component prices fall to a sufficient level to allow other companies to compete with Toshiba in the

 

[Ken_F]

Remember, both Blu-ray and HD-DVD have new interactive features, which both formats support by mixing multiple streams. One stream is the movie soundtrack, which the HD-DVD or Blu-ray player must mix with other audio streams, be it interactive sound effects, director commentary, pip, etc.

In both Blu-ray and HD-DVD, players decode the soundtrack on these interactive disks into linear PCM, and it is mixed in the player at uncompressed 24/96 to create a single audio stream. If you use HDMI or analog output, you get this mixed audio stream in uncompressed form. However, traditional spdif/coax output doesn't support uncompressed audio. To support this mixed stream through those legacy connections, HD-DVD and Blu-ray players compress this format into the legacy DD or DTS format. Toshiba chose to do its compression for this audio stream at 1.5Mbps DTS in its player, to minimize the sound quality loss from lossless and high-bitrate Dolby Digital Plus tracks.

I think a criticism a lot of Toshiba owners have...is they want the option to disable the interactive features and sound mixing, to output the core Dolby Digital component of the Dolby Digital Plus stream (or core DTS component of a DTS-HD stream) through spdif/coax, without any modification or remixing. The Toshiba player does not currently provide the option to do this with legacy outputs. There is an option that disables the mixing, but it only works for the HDMI audio output, and not spdif/coax.

 

[Ken_F]

Note the core component isn't necessarily 640Kbps. It could be 384Kbs or less of the 1.5Mbps stream.

Thus far, some titles use 640Kbps while others feature 1.5Mbps Dolby Digital Plus streams.

 

[Dave Moritz]

To my knowledge the Toshiba player may support DTS-HD but does not offer any decoding for DTS-HD.

 

[Sean Bryan]

Just to clarify (as in the other thread), I think it is possible for analog component to handle 1080p (in general). But AACS doesn't "allow" it on HD DVD or BD.

 

[Ed St. Clair]

Cool!
So component video (analog) as a format can indeed do 1080p.
Then the thread title is 'wrong' and should be changed.
Just joking, again!
I believe it is true that the format of HD on disc, both BD & HD-DVD, will not "allow" 1080p on component output.
Thanks, Sean.
Component video was way ahead of its time. Does not offer the "one cable" solution of HDMI, however I've seen many posts on the web that state component outperforms HDMI (on analog displays, digital displays, DVD output, & HD-DVD output). To bad its three cables & no audio!

HDMI sure is a mess. Compatability issues, reliability issues, performance issues, not to mention its 'evil' copyright protection issues.
Hope HDMI 1.3 is the answer to all our hopes & dreams!

 

[PeterTHX]

Component is also analog.
HDMI is digital, from input to output. People don't bother to calibrate their display for HDMI (one size/setting does NOT fit all).
HDMI in 1.1 form offers digital video 1080p, control information, and uncompressed multichannel digital audio. Whatever problems people have had are on the HARDWARE side, not with HDMI itself.
Component barely has the bandwidth for 1080i, it might be able to pass 1080p, but would it look right?

 

[Ed St. Clair]

Would it?
Anyone care to tackle that?
Thanks.

 

[Mark Bendiksen]

Am I the only one confused by all of the audio options/features that are part of the HD-DVD spec? I consider myself relatively intelligent but I'm getting a bit woozy trying to make heads or tails out of all the hardware + software options when it comes to audio.

 

[ChristopherDAC]

See my post in the Sticky thread for a comment on the feasibility of passing 1080p via analog component. Simply put, there's no real physical problem : the bandwidth is only 60 MHz (30 for the chroma channels) — and actually, some rolloff as you approach DC will have very little effect. Even cheap TV antenna leadins typically are pretty flat between, say, 15 kHz and 250 MHz. On the other hand, it wouldn't necessarily be convenient, and I don't believe a television exists which will interpret such an input properly, so the point is moot.

 

[PeterTHX]

My experience with HDMI has been positive. I've seen plenty of CHEAP cables cause problems. This is one case when the (admittedly overpriced) Monster Cables HDMI actually work properly. HDMI has been around for quite some time. If there's a problem, it's because something...either the transmitting device or the receiving device...has a problem. Or a bad cable. That's the blessing and curse of digital. Either you get it (and get it all, a perfect signal) or you don't.

 

[Ed St. Clair]

Thanks for the reply, Chris.
You have never heard of or experience a temp "drop out" from a digital signal?

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Dave,

since the Toshiba doesn't have HDMI 1.3, then if it can't decode it (to LPCM at least), it can't support it either. Future products with HDMI 1.3 can always pass the native stream untouched.

 

[Mark Zimmer]

No, you're not alone. The multiplicity of audio formats and the specialized connections required to use them is sure to do nothing but hurt the adoption of both HD DVD and BD. Even if the two competing video formats couldn't agree with each other, it would have been nice if the BDA and DVD Forum could at least have settled on a single lossless audio format. The current state of affairs is ridiculous.

 

[Dave Moritz]

I just thought it was kinda rediculous that it had Dolby Digital Plus but not DTS-HD onboard.

Also I saw the Toshiba HD-DVD for the first time actually hooked up to a HDTV. I went to my local Best Buys here in Phoenix. And when the store first got the HD-DVD players. There was only one sitting on the shelf with the three movies sitting on top of it days later. The store had not even botherd to hook up there display modle. Fast foward to yesterday and they had a HD-DVD player hooked up to of all tv's a 40" Sony LCD with a Yamaha surround reciever. The tv was set up directly under a bright light and IMHO hooked it up to a tv that was to small. To small to take full advantage of the format and display the true difference between HD-DVD and DVD. On top of it they only had the front channels hooked up and sound was only coming out of the left and right speakers. What a horible attemp at displaying new technology. The entire time I was checking out the HD-DVD not one person aproched me and asked me if I needed help or if I was interested in taking one home.

It makes you wonder how BB sells HDTV's and how they exspect to attract customers to a new HD format? I do wonder if this was someone at the store just not caring. Or if this was corprate stupidity at its best. Telling the store oh dont worry just hook it up to anything just dont hook it up to any big hdtv's. They also did not use the HDMI cable and used component to the 40" tv. All thought I think they have most of the HD-DVD discs available for sale they just dont seem to be interested in actually selling HD-DVD players.

I would have to admit that even though I am trying to hold out for Blu-ray. I was impressed with how nice the picture looked using component cables. I would like to see how nice the picture looks on a 50" or 60" HDTV and how good it looks on a 100" projection set up. I can personally care less about DD+, as long as it at least sounds compairable to standard DD. I can tolerate DD+ and will live with the movies only being available in DD+. My plans are to purchase a HD projector that can handle 1080p and a Stewert 120" screen. And if I can afford it I will place a JBL project array center channel behind the screen with matching rear speakers. Of course I will have to find a nice stought 200 x 7 power amp to go with it :- )

 

[PeterTHX]

Because DD+ has been much easier to implement and DTS is late to the party (as usual). DD+, even though lossy compressed, is pretty much transparent to the master without going entirely lossless. It's also much more efficient, and HD DVD doesn't have space to spare unlike Blu-ray (which will initially use multichannel PCM). I expect most program providers will also use DD+ on Blu-ray. (They are for HD DVD, as I predicted a few months ago).

 

[Ed St. Clair]

Still like the "positive" ring to this thread title, over the sticky.
Maybe "both" could be added to this title, as BD as far as we know, will be HiRez (720p/1080i) over analog as well.

Something I thought there was no way was going to happen with HD on disc.
Wrong again!!! ;-)

 

[Cees Alons]

BD, as far as we know, supports (obeys) the ICT bit too, just like HD DVD.
There's nothing positive about that.

The fact that current new HD DVD releases don't have the ICT bit set, is positive news - for those releases, not for any of the formats.


Cees

 

[Ed St. Clair]

Poorly worded on my part, Cees.
Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Steve Tannehill]

But this thread is sure a lot less negative--and more accurate--than the original sticky thread's subject. Thanks very much for fixing that, by the way.

- Steve