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It's official: BOTH Blu-ray and HD-DVD downrez component (1 Viewer)

Kelly Grannell

Second Unit
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Messages
445
Yup, it buying pre-recorded HD is like buying a Lamborghini and driving it in a desert. The car is capable to run up to 345 km/hour, but the infrastructure won't allow you to do so.

What's the point in buying BD or HD DVD now? Both formats will be dead if the average joe will only get 540p.

see the logic: 480p, buy a regular DVD player, $100
540p, buy a new format, $500.

Even mathematically the jump in the number of lines doesn't jive with the price delta. :thumbsdown:
 

Ric Easton

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
2,830
What a mess. My TV is 3 years old. No HDMI. If the studios start doing this flagging crap, its gonna be a long while until I get on board with either new format. Maybe there will be a clear winner by then.

It's almost like they don't want to succeed.
 

RobertSiegel

Reviewer
Joined
Mar 10, 2004
Messages
1,290
When are the consumers who are honest, decent, movie-buyers going to stop suffering the wrath of the greedy movie studios? Never, I suppose....How much have we all spent supporting Hollywood, only to be slapped in the face time and time again. So, my little-over-a-year-old Sony projector was now a total waste of money, except for off-air HD signals. Or will they start using the system on that too?

How many millions of people who spent hard-earned money on their display are going to have it deemed worthless for the new generation of high-def movies (I would say millions). I have made my decision, since I cannot afford another projector with the digital input, and since buying the new HD discs will provide very little picture improvement, I will just stick with dvd. How excited I was, only to have it taken away. The studios and others involved have milked us with 3-4 versions of their big movies, now the consortum sees fit to screw us over once again, this time in a very big way. It will be interesting to see which studios follow this rip off to the consumer, I suspect most of them will involve themselves.

I do not illegally copy movies, I watch them for my enjoyment at home and am in love with doing just that. Do they really think that hackers and bootleggers out there really will not figure out how to copy movies anyway in the digital form?? They always have and always will, so why hurt the decent honest consumer who just wants to enjoy? Some of you posting here are stating that it won't be so bad...well, sorry...I want what is coming to me for buying my new blu-ray discs....and my 10,000.00 projector. Full High Definition.

yes, I am Very angry! I really hoped this decision would have been different, but I suspected it was coming---judging in the last 20 years the way Hollywood has treated those who support them.
 

Ken_F

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Nov 13, 1998
Messages
136
On a tangent, the AACS constraints for audio...

Unfortunately, the thread doesn't have a clear answer on whether I-Link is on the approved last for full-resolution audio output.

Many will need evidently need new home theater receivers with HDMI to experience the "full resolution audio" on HD-DVD and Blu-ray. That would seem like a good reason not to invest in any receiver without HDMI audio input.
 

Ryan-G

Supporting Actor
Joined
Oct 13, 2005
Messages
621


I understand where you're coming from, and I sympathize with you, I truly do as that's a very expensive problem you're looking at right now.

But honestly, look at it from the other side too. Today, right now, it only takes minutes to find somewhere to download any movie right now. Even the movies still in the theaters. Piracy is prevelant.

The closest parallel is Napster, which became ridiculously popular and showed the potential impact. What makes it worse is that Music is something people listen to over and over, but Movies are often view once and never again, so there's no motivation at all to "Stay legal" with movies you enjoyed.

Hollywood's looking down the barrel of a loaded gun, and we consumers are the ones holding it. Hollywood has *no* choice, they have to do something and do it now.

Because what's coming down the pipe is going to be very bad. There's P2P development going on right now on systems that completely mask your IP addy making it difficult to impossible to identify who's pirating.

Sure, it's likely that hackers will find some way to get around the protections. But until there are laws that are enforced with real teeth on the subject of Piracy, something's gotta be done. Otherwise it's probably death to the entire industry. Truth be told too, it's not the Hackers that are the biggest issue, but rather than "slightly above average computer user" which currently can copy anything and hand it out to dozens of friends.

I know that the popular theory is that theater viewing's slump is due to comparitively poor product this year, but IMO, if a study were done I'd bet there's better correlation between between piracy and sales than there is quality and sales.

I'm sorry for you, I really am, 10k in hardware is not cool when you have to replace it, but Hollywood is really not in any better position than you are. There's just no winning solution anymore, because people aren't inherently good and honest, and have threatened an industry with a death spiral.
 

Jason Harbaugh

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2001
Messages
2,968
Ryan-G, I understand that you are trying to be the devils advocate here but every piracy issue you mentioned will not change due to downconversion over component.

Again, doesn't relate to downrezing. Can't burn a copy of a Blu-ray or HD-DVD disc if it doesn't exist yet.

Enforcing the ICT flag won't phase any of those piracy operations. It only denies the legal consumer of a quality legal product.

Once everything gets finalized and we know for sure what will and won't be allowed over component, along with what studios support what, I'll move forward with any needed public outcry starting with our local NBC affiliate. Their HD broadcasts are sponsered by Ulimate Electronics, who happens to be the place that sold me one of my HDTVs.

I don't expect ICT to be one of the top bulletpoints in trying to sell Blu-ray and HD-DVD to consumers, so it will be up to us screwed over kind to get the word out.
 

RobertSiegel

Reviewer
Joined
Mar 10, 2004
Messages
1,290
So, should the makers of narcotic pain pills coat them so they don't work as well for the people who use them legally because they are sold on the black market and they don't want those to work? If you think about it, they are bruising their good customers. They have tried for years with their copyright protection and it ALWAYS gets broken, as it will again, even the digital side. As you said, anyone can download new movies in about 30 minutes, even the ones playing in the theaters. I think this is totally wrong...I can't be convinced otherwise, that's it's an attack on their own customers who have been loyal for years. $10,000 may be nothing to Hollywood, but it is to me. Gee, thought I was ready for high def dvds.
 

Cees Alons

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jul 31, 1997
Messages
19,789
Real Name
Cees Alons
No, I'm not holding any part of any barrel aimed at any Hollywood studio.

If this is true, than I pity them, because they will go down. I have no intention of buying a crap product (one I consider unfit for me), because of considerations like this.
Nor do I deem it acceptable, all of a sudden.

Luckily, though, I don't believe they're in that sort of a mess: DVD sales are still extremely good and the product is highly profitable (only the growth has declined lately, but there is still more growth than in almost any other market).

And many members of this forum, myself included, being fervent opponents of all media piracy, have never copied a DVD or downloaded a movie in their entire lifes, so we simply cannot feel personally responsible for the alleged losses.

The bottom line in threads like this is: we express our opinion that we don't like a certain feature of the intended product (or more features). (They should be glad with this marketing chance, BTW.) And the reasoning behind their choices, be they understandable or not, do not and cannot influence our opinions of said product.

In my opinion it's still the studios who are holding barrels: shooting full loads of cannon barrels to kill a flight of sparrows.


Cees
 

Marko Berg

Supporting Actor
Joined
Mar 22, 2002
Messages
856


The above statement comes close to being a personal insult. Consumers who pay for the product are not holding studios hostage, professional pirates are. Instead of suing dead grandmas studios have the option to go after these professional pirates who keep chunking out pirated discs by tens of thousands.

That, however, is not enough for the studios who would like to see fair use gone permanently. And it's sad that studios aren't engaging in discussion on what exactly should constitute fair use in this day and age. They prefer the preach and dictate approach instead.
 

Ric Easton

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
2,830


Well, let me tell you, replacing 3k in hardware is no fun either. And it's not going to happen. Looks like I will continue to support DVD... Unless TV technicians figure out how to retrofit my TV with HDMI. Of course by that time Hollywood will have comw up with something else.
 

Shawn Perron

Supporting Actor
Joined
Oct 25, 2002
Messages
500
I can understand the frustration about down conversion, but I can't understand people that claim to be "enthusiasts" but also claim to be sticking with DVD. A minimum 540p will be far superior to DVD, and unless there is a huge price desparity between DVD and HD on disc, why stay with DVD? Making this decision in anger strikes me as cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Waiting for atleast a 2nd generation player makes sense. To me buying new DVDs is a waste of money since I will just wish I had held off for the HD version. The exception to this rule would be content that will take forever to be released in HD if ever.

Everyone in PAL land should be all over HD on disc as it may mean the end of sped up audio tracks/movies. You will finally get to see the movies at home the same way they were shown in a theater. A lot of people will be happy just because they won't feel the need to import NTSC discs.
 

Vader

Supporting Actor
Joined
Mar 19, 1999
Messages
811
Real Name
Derek


Since the original releases will all be bare bones anyway, the eventual double-dip on a later spacial edition is inevitable. While the quality of these first releases will seem stunning (and will be, compared to SD DVD), so were the first bare bones DVDs when compared to VHS (and, to a lesser degree, LD). If the first "red-carpet" titles look as good as we've seen, imagine what later "special edition" pressings will look like. From that POV, then, double-dips are inevitable (for me, at least), so I am saving money by buying the SD version now, waiting for the format war to subside (ie. Toshiba seeing the writing on the wall), and getting a second generation (at least) machine. Around that time the "special editions" will start to surface (just as they did with SD DVD)
 

RobertSiegel

Reviewer
Joined
Mar 10, 2004
Messages
1,290
After spending the 10,000 for my projector that only accepts component for hi-def, and continue to pay off the bill for a few more years, I won't be rushing into high def dvds.....and spending another $1000 on a player and replacing all those discs until the players and the discs come down in price. I am going to try and sell my projector and get what I can. When I go high def, I don't want 540p, I want 1080p thanks. And "cutting off my nose despite my face." well, one has to put their foot down at some point and say that, while I was well prepared and thought ahead (my mistake) for HD..why should people spend thousands of dollars and end up with the lesser resolution? I don't think I should have to settle for 540p. I suppose building up a new library (after my VHS, Laserdisc and DVD libraries) of high def discs, at least when I can get a new projector I'll have the movies.

I have stopped buying many dvds, because for years I have double/triple (ore more) dipped on titles. I have 7 versions of Sound of Music, and considering the laserdisc prices, that's a hefty investment in one movie. Each time a new edition came out, Fox claimed better resolution, remastered this and remastered that...and until this new 40th anniversary edition they were all terrible. I have given up a new car and several trips among other things to pay for my projector...only to find they are going to down-convert for my only available HD signal. I am disabled and get social security disability, and to me this projector was a dream, until last week with this announcement. The studios decide to say to me: sorry, your large investment means nothing to us, we are worried about pirates, who with-in months of the first high-def discs, will crack the codes and be selling the high-def pirated versions anyway.

Shawn, sometimes we have to cut off our noses despite our faces to prove we're tired of this Hollywood game, it's costing us alot of money for nothing. They are going to count on the early adopters for the first few years, and we are exactly the people they are screwing over with this decision. Sometimes it feels good to take a stand, I would rather do that than follow, like a pack of sheep to the video store, and empty my wallet on buying products that have been coded to be less than what I should be getting, and it seems alot of posters here feel the same.
 

GlennH

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Sep 28, 1998
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2,155
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Glenn
I sympathize completely with anyone who has an HDTV without HDCP-enabled digital input, because I'm one of them (5 year old Pioneer Elite, analog component only). But I have to wonder, are you saying that you have a $10K Sony projector, only 1+ year old, and it doesn't have either DVI/HDCP or HDMI? Not to doubt you, but that's very surprising to me. What model was that?
 

Robert Saccone

Premium
Joined
Jan 3, 2000
Messages
596
Even though the capability to down-rez is there it doesn't mean the studios have to use it. Seems like one way to react is to lobby and/or boycott, with the help of owners of home theater enthusiasts sites like this one, those studios that actually enable the down-rez.
 

Ryan-G

Supporting Actor
Joined
Oct 13, 2005
Messages
621


With all due respect sir, the problem isn't proffessional pirates.

Anyone with a small amount of knowledge can easily copy any given DVD with little effort today. This is the problem. It's not the proffessional pirates camping out the flea markets with copies of DVDs, or selling them from their homes. Nor is it the proffessional pirates downloading them from the internet and buring them to a disc, then selling it for 5$ a pop on the side.

It's the average person who's doing it. That's who the laws have to stop. All you have to do is make it impossible for the average person to achieve. In doing so, you'll eliminate the vast majority of piracy today.

It's like software piracy, the average person isn't able to pirate most software today because the technology is beyond their knowledge. Certainly it can be done, and it is being done, but it's beyond the average person's ability to do so.

Which is exactly what this is about.

Making it impossible for the average person to do, by eliminating the vectors that make it possible for the average person.

I apologize if anyone here was offended about the loaded gun, but what I'm seeing today is pervasive and increasingly available. Worse, it requires little to no technical skill to achieve, and I'm finding as I talk to people I loosely associate with that somewhere between 25%-50% of them are actively pirating. I'm finding it extremely disturbing because the consequences are so far reaching. Each of those people is a case study in absolutely lost revenue as they're not going to pay/purchase any material legally.

Look, honestly, I'll be happy to back up my arguements with some numbers if that's what is needed. For example, looking at one site shows me that...

The corpse bride: 1 seed, 75 leeches.
Mr and Mrs Smith: 120seed, 355 leeches.
Fantastic 4: 159seed, 331 leeches.
Doom: 95seed, 495 leechs.
Wallace and Grommit: 191seed, 1514 leeches.
Spaceballs: 77seed, 137 leeches.
Bambi 2: 140seed, 692 leeches.

That's just from a single site with no registration protocol. It's also only from the first 2 pages of listings, and it looks like the tracker is down. Added up, it's a grand total of 4382 in lost sales from a single site, and only a snap shot of just this moment. At just 20$ a pop, it's an 87,640$ loss for just a tiny sample size.

That doesn't count direct P2P, or consider any activity other than just this moment. This isn't a trivial number. But it is what's happening. It *has* to stop, no industry can afford losses like that.

Yes, I agree, the whole thing sucks. Yes, I know it's not anyone here doing it. I understand why people here are frustrated and angry.

But this is the "Film lovers" hang-out, and as film lovers we *really* need as a group to quit hating the movie studios and start considering why it is they're doing it.

What really should be happening here, instead of hundreds of pages of movie studio hate, is forming campaigns to force governments to start taking action against P2P piracy. *That's* what is causing this problem in the first place, and I'll bet vast amounts of money that if the governments would get off their heinies and shut this stuff down, Hi-def over component wouldn't be a problem.

So seriously, can't someone with some legal knowledge turn their energy from the component issue to the Piracy one so that the root of the problem can be eliminated? It's P2P that's forcing the component issue, and P2P is really not all that hard to eliminate as it's characteristics make it very easy to identify and shut down right now.
 

Aaron_Brez

Supporting Actor
Joined
Apr 22, 2000
Messages
792

Unfortunately, that's using studio accounting, which says that people who pirate would have otherwise purchased the video; in reality, many would have told the kids to just re-watch The Little Mermaid instead of Bambi 2. They're pirating not out of some need to do so or in order to save money, but simply because they can, so why not? In short, it's quite possible it's not a lost sale, per se, though it's certainly some kind of shiplifting, if nothing else. Frankly, I think legitimate buyers should be more indignant about pirates than the studios should, since the legitimate buyers are the ones getting screwed by having to pay for something a lot of others are getting for free.

Your other points are mostly valid, but getting governments to crack down on this means, in the end, we all pay (taxes) in order to ensure Hollywood gets paid for every copy out there. And, frankly, I'd rather have my taxes pay to have law enforcement keep people from breaking into my house or physically harming me.
 

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