I'm getting totally DISGUSTED with collecting TV series on DVD (1 Viewer)

[Kevin/M]

Do you really know this, or are you just making basleless, unfounded statements?

 

[george kaplan]

I don't think studios look for "ways to screw over fans". I think they look for ways to make as much money as possible, and if what they perceive as a way to make more money entails screwing over fans, then that certainly doesn't stop them.

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

Did you read what this gentleman does for a living, or the rest of his post for that matter? I think he is in a far more knowledgable position as to the inner workings of the business than most of us.

It is far simpler for a studio to obtain rights to music than it is to replace it. They can use existing masters and simply do a transfer. Replacing music requires locating a suitable replacement (which may include recording it) going back to the stems and remixing. This isn't something I would want to do for the hell of it.

As has been said countless times in this thread, the studios are required to make money releasing product. If a rights issue threatens to negate that profit, or otherwise jeopardize the show's production budget, then it needs to be addressed in a suitable manner, which may include removing the piece. Armchair producers can cry foul all they want, but assuming the studio is just out to rip off fans shows how well you understand the issues. Like the Rolling Stones said, "you can't always get what you want."

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Graham - that was fantastic! Thank you very much!

I did take the suggestion of not putting in music in the first place from groups that later demand to much money for other releases...

I think that what is going to happen is that the studios are going to come up with a shit list - a list of 'right's holders' that will later demand too much money, and they will end up not getting any of their songs - in anything - ever.

Glenn

 

[Jon Martin]

Did it? I only saw it on VHS and cable. It was cut both times.

It was when Wayne goes into the music store, picks up a guitar and plays the opening notes to STAIRWAY. And then the owner of the store points to a sign that says "No Stairway to Heaven".

It was a funny joke in the theatres, but on both the VHS and cable versions he picks up a guitar and generic heavy metal is heard on the soundtrack. The joke makes no sense after that.

Like I stated, it was very common for Paramount to replace music on video. In fact, I was watching a Paramount VHS last night, a movie from 1979. It had a disclaimer on the box saying "Music has been changed". The entire end credits look like they had to be redone to remove the old music credits.

So, this isn't anything new.

 

[Marko Berg]

What a great contribution to this thread.

Graham's post is great in putting things in perspective. I also agree with Parker in that studios should make public the alterations they choose to/are forced to make when releasing TV product on DVD.

I often find myself waiting for reviews and fan reaction if a TV on DVD release looks suspicious with regard to edits. The problem is, I'll probably miss the preorder or first week sale price and if the price of the title is raised considerably, it may not be a high-priority release to me anymore. Maybe I'll still get the product later after a price drop, but the sale most likely doesn't count to the studio as much as it could have earlier -- sales of the title are not tracked any longer and the studio has given up on watching said title as basis of demand for future seasons of the series, or some other series.

 

[Michael Alden]

And I feel sorry for people who's lives are so sad that they cannot allow themselves to be passionate about their interests and their hobbies. I for one wouldn't want to be alive if I couldn't enjoy the things I love that aren't a matter of life and death because when it comes down to it the only things that really are a matter of life and death are LIFE and DEATH. But that still doesn't mean that you can't care about a sports team, music, pets or your TV show collection.

I too have gotten fed up. I like the analogy of buying a book and finding pages missing. Or how about buying a CD reissue of an album and finding songs taken off? Or a complete set of baseball cards or stamps or whatever and finding some not included? Or included but in altered condition? These arguments that seem to crop up here usually come down to 2 sides - the serious collectors who really care about this and the Johnny Come Latelys. The JCLs are mostly people who didn't even start collecting to any great degree until the DVD revolution and their collecting doesn't go back more than a few years. They, and the industry apologists who for whatever reason feel the need to defend any criticism of the studios. Why they feel the need to pop into these threads and stir things up, I don't know. Look, some changes are without a doubt unavoidable. If someone is asking more for a song clearance than the product will make in profits then obviously there isn't a choice. But most of the changes, not all, but most are due to the following:

Cluelessness - Companies releasing product they haven't the slightest idea about. They get a set of masters and haven't any idea about the basics of the show such as running times, etc.

Negligence - This is what we have therefore this is what we are releasing. Perfect example of this is Lion's Gate with Alf.

Laziness - Probably the biggest one. Rhino puts out a show like My Favorite Martian with lexiconed episodes. Did anyone there even try to pick up a phone to contact the estate of the producer to see if they might have complete versions? I think not. Or how about the Cannell shows? Why was Nights in White Satin by the Moody Blues not used in the final episode of the Sonny Steelgrave arc, the best arc of the series? It was cleared for another DVD release. Well, when someone asked the Moody Blues about it the answer was simple - no one ever even called and asked. So its not always greedy music publishers. Cannell is too lazy to even pick up a phone. As are many of these people. Too much work hitting all of those buttons.

And please, stop with the lame excuses, like on ALF how the dubs were better quality and that's why they were used instead of the masters. Please. I'll lend them my VHS tapes if they like dubs so much. At least mine are complete.

 

[Kevin/M]

I agree. Thank You Michael Alden for such a good reply (I agreed with it more than than the firework-passing-for-rebuttals that have appeared too often on threads such as these)

 

[Jon Martin]

I see it the other way around.

Many of those that complain about TV shows and (to a similar extent less than perfect DVD transfers) are those new to video collecting. They are used to DVD being their first format to collect so they expect everything to be perfect. They can't understand why everything can't be perfect.

Meanwhile, for myself, probably older than others here, who grew up watching a lot of TV shows on a Black and White TV, snowy, pre-cable, I'm more forgiving.

I still remember the days of missing a TV episode, hoping the show doesn't get cancelled and being able to see a rerun.

So, if a show is missing a song or two, that isn't the end of the world, as I understand how the industry works. It is better to see it that way than to not see it at all.

 

[JohnMor]

I agree. But that's not what my post was saying. It was merely addressing the priority of where the passion fits into some lives, not whether it's there or not. It's not an either/or situation, despite what other posters were trying to imply (i.e. you either care like we do, or you "don't care" at all.)

With all of those things in my life, I am MORE passionate about having some dvd sets in my collection, whether edited or not. For instance, I'm glad to have The Doris Day Show to watch, even if it is time-sped because I love Doris and watching it helps to take my mind off my troubles. I would much rather have it to watch than to forgo it just to send a studio a message (that they may or may not get.) That's how my passion expresses itself. Now, to Joe Lugoff, it might make him feel WORSE to see a "botched" set and only add to his troubles, and that's how his passion expresses itself. Both are totally valid.

The only right and wrong I see in all this is when people try to maintain that their view is the only "right" view, or that only they are passionate.

 

[Michael Alden]

I look at these things on a case by case basis. I will pick up the Doris Day show set. It's something that really hasn't been around much. If it has aired anywhere, it's been in edited form anyway. So there's really no choice. That unfortunately is the case with most pre-1980 shows. However for the post-1980 shows I would rather seek out collectors who recorded off-network copies if the DVDs are released in changed form. So Alf - no sale, Wiseguy - no sale. I'm lucky in that music changes don't play a factor in 98% of the shows I have an interest in so that isn't an issue for me. What really irks me is when a studio (yes you Sony) puts out a show from an edited master when the same studio released the show from a non-edited master on VHS just a few years ago. I will still buy it and then look for someone with a complete version to trade with. I'm not about to give something up that I can't get elsewhere in a better form but if it's something I can acquire I will seek other avenues.

 

[Graham Greenlee]

I agree with Glenn that a "shit list" will probably be 'created' with artists and publishers who are very stingy with their songs. Five for Fighting is the prime example of an artist who belongs on the list. With the amount of times "Superman (It's Not Easy)" and "100 Years" have been used in shows over the last few years, John Ondrasik (who is Five for Fighting) doesn't need to charge through the nose to make a lot of money, and from what I'm hearing, he is starting to cause a little resentment among television producers. The Beatles, Madonna and Led Zepplin are already well known for having nearly impossible agreements that most producers don't go after them anyway.

Someone once commented to me on how much Jeff Buckley's rendition of "Hallelujah" has been used over the last few seasons, appearing in no less than four season finales since 2002, among other occasions. Besides it being a beautiful song, it struck me that it's likely a relatively inexpensive song to get a license from. Leonard Cohen wrote the song many years ago, and he has made a lot of money over the years to not NEED to charge a small fortune, and the Jeff Buckley estate is probably not too worried about making a huge profit. Could be why we hear "Hallelujah" instead of "The Long and Winding Road?"

Another interesting song license story: While working on The West Wing's fourth season episode "Commencement," director Alex Graves was editing the final act where the president's daughter is kidnapped. Graves paced the scene to Massive Attack's "Angel" finding that the song fit the tone of the act, starting off with an eerie atmosphere and building to a chaotic sound... but the whole time, Graves thought that they could never secure the song and told the show's music supervisor to look for a song that would be similar. When the music supervisor came back with other choices and a full price sheet of those songs including "Angel," Graves was surprised that the Massive Attack song was nearly as expensive as he thought it would be and thus the show secure full rights to the song, which ended up becoming some seven of the most memorable minutes in West Wing's history.

Another anecdote I've heard is from Cold Case where producers for the show are intent on having authentic period songs for flashback sequences, that they'll pay through the nose in order to get that one or two songs just for television broadcast... In this case, I don't think that showrunners fully realize the potential profit that they could make by releasing the show on DVD. (Without heavy edits, or paying even more to licensers, we may never see Cold Case on DVD.)

It's different for a show like American Dreams which is completely based around "American Bandstand" and songs featured on the show... but procedural dramas certainly shouldn't be depending so much on expensive catalog songs. I noticed Without a Trace's use of a Coldplay song in one episode. It's use fit with the tone of the scene, but a similar song could have easily done the same thing.

Showrunners should be more cognizant of ancillary markets for their shows. The industry has expanded immensely in the last few years, and I think it's close minded for producers to simply think that broadcast is the end of their show's lives. As we've seen from the HBO shows among others, programs can have even larger audiences on DVD. Any showrunner coming into the 2005-2006 season who doesn't think about more than just the first airing of the show is clearly behind the times.

I suppose this all comes down to: When I'm a showrunner, I'm going to be sure to clear everything for all markets... but that's a topic for another day.

 

[Jeff Willis]

Man, what a thread Sure gives us all food for thought.

Here's some quotes that I picked out from the last few posts:



Great post, Mike A. I feel the same way if it's video/scene cuts. I'm a lot more forgiving about music alterations but I understand those who feel that the music content is important. It's difficult for me to be understanding about the cut-ep issue with TV/DVD distributors. I tend to agree with the majority of Mike A's post about what may actually be the reasons for cut/incomplete TV/DVD sets. It often appears to me that the reasons you stated may be closer to the truth about why some of these sets contain incomplete material. Ironically, there's a parallel conversation about some of this in the "DVD Piracy" thread. Both of these tend to be "emotional" subjects and on that note, I'd like to thank those members of the forum that show restraint when posting (ie refraining from using language and phrases that tend to contribute to the "fireworks"). Let's keep the fireworks at the various activities taking place around the U.S. this holiday.

 

[Joe Lugoff]

I'm afraid to say anything after getting bawled out so much.

But I do want to thank Michael Alden for making my original points better than I did and for defending people who are passionate about their hobbies.

My original point involved sets where a LOT goes wrong -- where every single episode is cut or sped up, or where several episodes (such as "I Love Lucy" 4) have missing scenes.

This thread seriously detoured into the subject of music that is missing or replaced. I don't mind a song missing because the rights holder got greedy. "Mary Tyler Moore" 1 is in my collection, and a magnificent set it is, one of the all-time best.

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

Joe, there is no problem being being passionate about your hobby, and there is no problem being pissed off when a favorite show/movie is released in a less than perfect way. I believe that the number of releases that are seriously messed up are limited, although many have some issues. Of course that's no consolation when they are the ones you want to own. I dont' have aready solution for the missing scenes issue. I would hope that most studios do their best to release shows intact, since I would think that by now they know they won't get away with just being lazy.

 

[george kaplan]

And I would argue the opposite, that they've learned that in most cases they can be lazy (and cheap), cause lots of people are still buying the sets that aren't done right. :frowning:

 

[Jon Martin]

Is everyone who is upset with a mistake / music change writing the studio that released it (both email and snail mail) when you find out about it?

Not buying it is only going to tell them there is no interest. Think of it as your own protest, but they only see it as the title not being popular enough to continue.

But, to write them / call them, that will send a message.

 

[JohnMor]

Absolutely right, Jon. They have to hear WHY.

 

[Robert Cruz]

It's kinda tough when you have a company (Sony being the main example) that has a "nonexistent" customer service. You'd have better luck contacting the president of the United States (and getting a response).

 

[MatthewA]

If I were running a show, I would never use anything but original music.

I'm more gung-ho about the editing. I find this the most penny wise and pound foolish thing to be cheap about.

And as for Sony's non-existent customer service, I have written two two U.S. presidents and gotten two form letters. More than I got from Sony.