if you use a digital out on a cd player is there a sound difference between players?

Discussion in 'Playback Devices' started by John-Miles, Mar 17, 2003.

  1. John-Miles

    John-Miles Screenwriter

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    I am thinking it would be exactly the same between a 100 dollar player and a 5000 dollar player if you use the optical or coaxial output because then your receiver will do the decoding right?
     
  2. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

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    John,

    Are you trying to resurrect that CD jitter debate again?? [​IMG]

    _Man_
     
  3. John-Miles

    John-Miles Screenwriter

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    No really im not Man, I just wanted to make sure. please no jitter talk here [​IMG]
     
  4. Grant B

    Grant B Producer

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    Pretty much.
    I use Megachangers and the analog is not great... fairly cheap D/As.
    The digital output sounds great thru the decoding in my preamp.
    I am sure the $$$$$$ one has a better mechanism and higher quality parts, which might make a differnce depending on your hearing.
     
  5. John Royster

    John Royster Screenwriter

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  6. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    I think so. There are good power supplies and bad. There are good lasers and bad. There are good transports, and bad. There is good vibration isolation, and there is bad. And there is jitter. Check out www.jitter.de/english/engc_navfr.html . They are selling a product, but it has the best description of what jitter is, and what can affect it that I've seen.

    I think it was in the last issue or 2 of DVD Etc where they reviewed cheap-o DVD players. For the most part, you *do* get what you pay for. And don't forget that you can probably expect better reliablity out of a $5000 player vs a $100 player. [​IMG]

    If you go to the power conditoner reviews at Secrets, www.hometheaterhifi.com , and read through them all, you will find out that even the AC coming from your wall affects jitter, which can be bad enough that anyone can experience it even without expensive measurement equipment. A player with a better power supply will better be able to handle stuff like that.
     
  7. Todd Schnell

    Todd Schnell Second Unit

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    John,
    To my ears, plain & simple there is an obvious difference.
    Go test it for yourself.
    Audition!

    Todd
     
  8. FrantzM

    FrantzM Stunt Coordinator

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    Hi

    With a reasonnably good system you will hear the differences and they are not subtle. I do not know why at this point and I have not read or heard of a good explanation , yet
    The same goes for a CD copy, the differences on a good transport are clearly audible.

    Just listen you will be for a surprise.


    Frantz
     
  9. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    You can't really discuss transport or other digital sonic differences without discussing jitter since that is 90-100% of the difference.

     
  10. LanceJ

    LanceJ Producer

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    My one & only contribution to this discussion: This ain't the 50's anymore folks. Audio technology is a very mature field now.

    Audio voodoo though is developing at a dizzying pace. [​IMG]

    Buh bye!

    LJ
     
  11. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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  12. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

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    Lee,

    You might've confused me w/ someone else (or misunderstood my view on the matter). I am not that skeptical about jitter or general differences between CD transports. In those couple recent debate threads, I was actually at least as skeptical about the validity of the few(?) DBTs done as jitter being audible. The arguments for jitter make enough sense to me although I don't feel they are all that rigorous. And I'm not sure reading those papers would really convince me much of anything. I'd prefer to just listen for myself like most anybody else and determine if I can appreciate the difference significantly.

    In any case, I'm not really in the position to benefit much since I can't afford the time and $$$ on the audiophile hobby--at least not to such extent right now. My interest in these debates is more casual while keeping myself reasonably aware of how, what and where the audio world is going so that I can make better decisions when the opp arises.

    _Man_
     
  13. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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  14. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

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    Yes, I saw your mention of creating a CD that demonstrates differences between high and low jitter audio. If you're making it freely (or cheaply) available to HTF members, I'd like to get a copy to listen for myself as well.

    Still, even if jitter is rigorously proven to be very audible, it would really only help much if a 3rd party similar to the folks at the Secrets site provided jitter measurements for an extensive list of CD transports. In that event, I'd think market pressures would help make good quality transports more affordable and generally accessable for people like me.

    And yes, I agree about wanting some technical/logical grounding for what I experience as well.

    _Man_
     
  15. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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  16. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Lee- I always wanted to do the following:

    I have a DAT deck and a CD-R/RW deck. I always wanted to try to get like a 10 or 20 generation copy from the original CD. Something like: original CD -> DAT -> CD-R -> DAT -> CD-R ... And then, on the last copy of the CD-R, I also put a 1st gen copy of the song too. So on 1 CD-R, *theoretically*, I should have a really good example of a "bad" jitter tune, and a good jitter tune. Never got around to it though. [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Or even just CD-R to CD-R. Record the CD-R, play it back in my DVD player to record on another CD-R, etc. Probably more likely it's bit perfect that way.
     
  17. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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  18. Craig_Kg

    Craig_Kg Supporting Actor

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    Unless the transport is so bad that it is introducing gross bit errors, the ONLY differences that there can be are entirely due to jitter. The form of the jitter can vary too, so 2 transports with the same level of jitter might not sound identical.

    It is possible for a CD -> DAT or CD -> CD-R etc operation to reduce the jitter if the clocking on the production of the copy is better than that used in the original mastering.
     
  19. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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  20. KeithH

    KeithH Lead Actor

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    Lee said:

     

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