Hybrid DVD-A dead! (1 Viewer)

[John Kotches]

All,

I heard back from Mark Waldrep already and got some information from him. Rather than repeat it second hand, I have asked if he can add comments in the forum, so that you hear it straight from the source.

If not, what I'm allowed to pass on, I will.

On the news front at AIX, the 17th of the month Mark is scheduled to be recording a big band, finally I have no idea when the disc will be available, but I'm looking forward to hearing the disc whenever it comes to be.

Regards,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

the 17th of the month Mark is scheduled to be recording a big band

That sounds good.

Does this mean Mark is still proceeding with a flipper?

 

[LanceJ]

.........scheduled to be recording a big band, finally

Cool beans!

Here's a big band on dvd-audio from DTS Entertainment (featuring Jane Monheit & Lou Rawls) and a review.

LJ

 

[John Kotches]

Lance,

I already have it. I prefer the Gordon Goodwin disc though

Regards,

 

[Justin Lane]

The hybrid dual layer solution doesn't work and there's thickness issues with the other method. That makes it dead for now. Maybe they'll come up with a way to resurrect it, but for now it's dead.

I have seen you mentione this before Seth. Could you please point me to some information concerning thickness issues on dual sided DVD. Or is this all just speculation on your part?

J

 

[KeithH]

John, right you are. I was sloppy in making a quick post. I should have said the implementation of MLP for the DVD-Audio format.

64 channels would be pretty cool, huh?

 

[John Kotches]

Keith,

The 64 channel sizing was explicitly designed for implementation in mixing consoles to cut down on local storage requirements and to help minimize the dataset size for transfers.

But yeah, something like "I've got 64 channels, and I'm not afraid to losslessly compress them!"

Regards,

 

[Mark_Waldrep]

Updates from the front...

Spent a couple of weeks on the road. First to AES in Amsterdam for the DVD-Audio workshop, Press Conference and Workshop before speaking at IRMA about DVD-Audio.

A couple of items of news:

AIX Records is moving ahead with plans for several releases in the DVD-Plus format this summer. We will have the first run of discs in about a week. They have been successfully replicated and are going to be used for thorough testing. They are CD-Audio on one side and DVD-Audio/Video on the other side (a DVD-5). The Jim DeJulio Jazz Quintet will be the first title to come to the market. The hybrid mentioned in the newscientist.com article used the single sided variety and are somewhat problematic. BTW - hybrid SACDs are also problematic in some players.

I was given one of the Artisan discs for testing a few years ago and found it to be unacceptably thick. The new discs are just below 1.47 mm in thickness. The maximum allowable by the Redbook is 1.2 + .3mm. So these discs are within the spec. The larger companies are in the midst of extensive testing and will have announcements sometime later this year regarding their plans. So far the results have been very promising.

I learned that DSOTM will be issued as a DVD-Audio title later this year. The same mixes AND lots of cool extras...should be interesting to compare. No firm date as yet, just a commitment from EMI.

UMG's announcement of support for the DVD-Audio format is very welcome news...we all knew it was coming but comfirmation was terrific news. Inside information has plans for 100 titles in the coming months.

BMG has issued press announcement for exclusive support of DVD-Audio format. They favor it as the most logical and flexible format offered going forward.

The SACD workshop in Amsterdam heralded the development of new hardware to support multitracking in DSD (now limited to 8 tracks) and the commitment by AMS/Neve to develop a native DSD mixing console. Until that time, it seems most of the participants on the panel (mostly engineers working in the format) are using analog tape or PCM machines and processors to prepare their mixes for final transfer to DSD. My question to the group, "what possible advantage do you gain by simply capturing the final analog/PCM mix in DSD?" The response was rather vague and had something to do with being able to fully capture all of the fidelity of the console output.

Another comment had to do with the "enrichment" area of SACDs...a feature that has yet to be implemented on any disc or hardware player. When questioned about that, the response was, "we think it's important...but something for later."

Finally, a recent report done by Knowledge and Solutions cites sales of DVD-Audio discs outstripping SACD by 2 to 1...excluding the Stones reissued hybrids. Best Buy has decided to put two racks of DVD-Audios up in their retail outlets and a single one of SACD. Their comment at NARM, "We believe DVD-Audio offers our customers more."

It was very good week for the DVD-Audio format. Bye for now.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Finally, a recent report done by Knowledge and Solutions cites sales of DVD-Audio discs outstripping SACD by 2 to 1...excluding the Stones reissued hybrids.

This has to be flawed in two ways (1) that the major SACD titles are hybrids so no distinction can be made, and (2) it was done before DSOTM.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

My question to the group, "what possible advantage do you gain by simply capturing the final analog/PCM mix in DSD?" The response was rather vague and had something to do with being able to fully capture all of the fidelity of the console output.

Mark,

There are people producing work with a pure DSD chain, much more than just Mark Levinson. Obviously that is the only way to get the most of the sonics.

Also, there is more than 8 track DSD recording equipment available even now, according to my friends.

PCM has a built-in advantage of being around current studios for 20 some years - DSD will catch up over time.

 

[robertLP]

Yes, and I just rec'd word from Mark Waldrep (of AIX) that they will issue these in the super jewel cases, instead of the DVD-V cases like their previous releases. Most of you may not care, but it's just a pet peeve of mine. There's enough confusion/apathy within the general public about this format; it would be nice if all the labels could at least come together & agree on a packaging size...

Rob

 

[Phil A]

Well that is good news about the size of the cases. I complained to Mark in a prior thread. EMI still needs to do something with their pricing stucture. They currently list DVD-As at $25. It is usual for an audiophile label like AIX or Chesky to get a premium but I would not expect the majority of titles from a major label to get significant interest from the general public at that price point. Warner lowered their prices for that reason and at their price point it certainly makes an attractively priced product to get hi-rez vs. a CD.

 

[Mark_Waldrep]

Lee et al,

The DSOTM item is true and not a cruel April Fool's Joke, I wouldn't do that. The information is reliable as it came from one of the movers and shakers inside of EMI's DVD-Audio effort.

We are both correct regarding the current limitations of multitrack DSD machines. The Sonoma system can record only 8 tracks, however, productions have been made using 16 tracks by syncing two Pyramix DSD 8-track recorders together. A bit difficult but doable. I'm unaware of anyone doing more than 16. Genex has announced machines capable of more tracks but they are still not available.

The point I was trying to make was that I was surprized that these important European engineers were showing slides of PCM and analog multitracks as part of their production chain. I know my definition of "high-resolution" is rather narrow (limited to digital systems capable of greater dynamic range and frequency response than CDs and analog tape), but I simply don't understand the desire to capture the analog outputs of a recording console to DSD when everything up to that point is of limited resolution...at least compared to recording directly to high-resolution equipment.

Your tag line of "kissing the master tape" is too limiting for me, I want my recordings to exceed the limitations of the master tape...maybe the line should be:

"High-Resolution PCM source recordings...fidelity so spectacular that it's better than the real thing."

Just a thought...

 

[Lee Scoggins]

"High-Resolution PCM source recordings...fidelity so spectacular that it's better than the real thing."

Remove the PCM language so we can include DSD and you got yourself a deal.

I did change my tagline to reflect a cool statement made by Santiago Calatrava the world famous architect who is designing the new Atlanta Symphony hall. I hope you can come visit us here in Atlanta at some point. The Atlanta Audio Society to love to hear about your music and recording techniques.

 

[John Kotches]

Mark,

Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to add this knowledge.

I know it's a bit of an imposition, but by waiting until your post additional information (DSoTM) was passed along, plus I forgot to forward your e-mail to my laptop so that I could cut/paste this into the forum.

Regards,

 

[John Kotches]

Has anyone else noticed Seth has had limited commentary since we have pointed out that a single media form of CD / DVD-Audio is in the works?

Regards,

 

[Seth_L]

Yeah, break out the conspiracy theories John. That's right I'm just trolling.

Or maybe, just maybe, it has more to do with the fact that I've been out of town on business and don't have a lot of internet access on the road.

I couldn't care less if DVD-A makes hybrids or not. I can make a suitable CD from any DVD-A. The DD5.1 can be extracted and mixed down digitally to a CD. I can't do that with SACD, so a Hybrid is more important for SACD.

Seth

 

[Michael St. Clair]

The DD5.1 can be extracted and mixed down digitally to a CD.

For a stereo CD, you are better off recording the downsampled digital stereo output from the player - this can even be done with the MLP.

 

[John Kotches]

Seth,

I just find it interesting that you posted a really provocative headline, and then disappeared.

Plus, the headline is wrong.

Life goes on.

Regards,

 

[LanceJ]

The DD5.1 can be extracted and mixed down digitally to a CD. I can't do that with SACD, so a Hybrid is more important for SACD.

I hate to pop your bubble Seth, but you CAN do that with sacd.

LJ