DVD Review HTF REVIEW: Finding Nemo (TOTALLY RECOMMENDED) (1 Viewer)

[DaViD Boulet]

Bjoern,

Please post all applicable screen shots...or at least a link to where they are hosted on your own site.

I'm sure that myself, Michael, Bruce, and others are all interesting in seeing how these images appear on your own *reference* setting display system!

dave

 

[BruceKimmel]

I am totally open-minded, and my posts aren't meant to be borderline insulting or anything other than expressing my confusion regarding this particular transfer.

I don't use the catchphrases you list - they don't interest me. Show me something and I'll look at it and if you're right then I'll admit it's so. If it's minor, I'll admit it's so. If you're wrong, I'll admit it's so. I will then check what you show me against watching the film in real time and if I finally see the problems that the "few" not the "many" have spoken of, I'll be more than happy to admit that I was wrong.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Bjoern,

I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this disc.

I will then check what you show me against watching the film in real time and if I finally see the problems that the "few" not the "many" have spoken of, I'll be more than happy to admit that I was wrong.

Ah, if you see them on your setup, you will then be willing to admit that the issues exist.

The problem with that is that we don't all have the same setup and our brains don't all process visual information in the exact same way. We shouldn't all have to see the same thing in realtime in order to admit that issues exist.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Bruce,

I get where you're coming from. Folks just need to be comfortable with others seeing or not seeing what they're seeing or not seeing (on both sides).

Here's one basic prinicple we all need to consider: I think it's fair to say that if several folks see the same problem (however minor) with consistency, then it's likely something objective that does exist on the source even if other systems/eyes don't reveal it.

Ah, if you see them on your setup, you will then be willing to admit that the issues exist.

Bruce,

Michael is right. Even if you can't see these problems in your system in real time that doesn't mean that they're not on the disc...they very well may be visible on more revealing systems. That's why I typically rely on the impressions of folks like Bjoern to indicate what the "disc" really looks like on a reference system. If I don't see the same minor issues on my 34" direct-view I don't complain...but I'm well aware that my system doesn't have the resolving power of Bjoern's system to make an absolute statement about what the image encoded on the disc looks like in more objective terms.

For instance, I didn't see much MPEG noise with the Lion King DVD on either of the two systems upon which I viewed it...but others with much more "reference" systems than my own saw much more apparent artifacting...and I concede that they are likely seeing MPEG noise that's there but my system is not as resolving and so this same issue wasn't discernable when viewed on my display.

I'd love to see some great screen-caps from Bjoern's system with both the Nemo and Lion King disc!

dave

 

[BruceKimmel]

I am not saying a few others don't see the problems, I'm saying I, and quite a few others don't see them. I'm happy to look at whatever's shown to me and then I'll look for it within the movie. If I don't see it, then we'll just chalk it up to the fact that a few others do.

I guess one of my main points in all this is the fact that the people who did the transfer and the Pixar people who approved it had to be watching this stuff on the highest reference quality systems, most likely reference systems well beyond a home theater enthusiast and/or "videophile". So, if these problems exist why didn't they a) see them, and b) do something about them?

 

[DaViD Boulet]

How is Pixar different than all the other studios...including THX labs...who manage to release/approve DVDs that have A/V problems of various kinds? Granted we might assume that the Pixar dudes are cooler and more quality-consious than most studio "suits", but let's not be too idealistic about their marketing departments.

Just taking a general look at the DVDs on my shelf: Apparently the world of studio mastering is not quite the panacea of equipment or recording/mastering-philosophy that we might always hope for (sometimes it is, but this cannot be considered a given). However, this doesn't imply that it's all a nefarious plot against the dedicated AV-philes or that the parties involved don't care or try (at least some of the time) to do their best either...

Picture quality is one of *several* issues that a studio has to balance. Soundtrack options, special features...all these things compete for bit-space. It's quite likely that the folks at Pixar felt that they had acheived a standard of picture quality that was excellent (indeed it is) and what PQ compromises they *did* make were off-set by the inclusion of the many special features like the AV commentary and making-of featurette. Personally I would have liked the option to buy a "super duper SE" that took a super-bit approach...but in leu of that possibility, the current disc satisfies me in overall presentation/features.

 

[BruceKimmel]

Understood, David. I just have to imagine that the folks at Pixar are not your run--of-the-mill studio, and I'd think they would be totally control-conscious. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

But, I'll ask again the two questions which have yet to be answered:

Has there ever been a DVD released that has escaped this sort of nitpicky criticism - in other words, a DVD release which has not been criticized in any way, shape or form? If so, what is it.

What are some examples of DVDs that are more perfect that Finding Nemo - in other words, what would the "videophiles" recommend to me that are free of all the artifacts they see in this release. I'd like to watch said DVD (s) and see if I agree.

 

[Thomas Newton]

Maybe it's just me, but the other day, when I was playing the movie, I didn't see a place to select the French and Spanish soundtracks.

This was with the OAR disc. Perhaps the French / Spanish soundtracks only exist for (and take away bandwidth from) the reframed version?

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Correct Thomas. That issue was discussed in another thread. The alternate language tracks have been scrapped on the WS version to make room for the AV commentary.

An example of the Pixar folks not wanting to take the PQ down by trying using up max-bit-rate room on more language options by giving you those tracks *and* a commentary track.

Bruce,

Agreed that it's logical to assume that the Pixar folks are more AV quality-oriented than the "average" studio exec. That's clear by the DVDs that they've given us! It's just that even the AV philes in their mastering department are forced to try to work within the parameters set forth given the special feature content they want to include on the disc. You can bet that this is why we don't have DTS on this disc either...they probably would have loved to have offered it but felt that it would have generated too much of a PQ compromise given everything else they were trying to provide.

Oh...examples of "more perfect" DVDs.

I think that Toy Story comes up a strong reference disc with no obvious MPEG noise or other artifacts. Haven't reviewed it myself on a reference system...anyone care to chime in?

dave

 

[Bjoern Roy]

David,

I'd love to see some great screen-caps from Bjoern's system with both the Nemo and Lion King disc!

just so that no confusion arises. There are screenshots and eh... screenshots. Which are 2 completely different animals.

The only time i actually do 'screenshots' involving my actual 'system' and an actual photographic process, is in the section on my website called 'My HT in action'. They aren't worth a dime technically, since the photographic process, even when executed by a photo-nut like me with semi-professional equipment, is not capable to capture the image without compromises and limitations in frequency response (detail) and color accuracy. They are just done to give a basic sense of how my setup looks 'in action'.

This is such an actual 'photo' of my screen from Fifth Element:



The 'screenshots' i use for analysis or reviews do NOT involving any of my HT 'system' at all. No camera or screen are involved! To actually be of valid meaning for examination, the MPEG stream needs to be decoded with the highest possible precision and a resulting decoded still frame needs to be saved on disc in its native resolution (720x480 or 720x576).

The easist way to do this, is by doing screen-grabs with a mainstream DVD software decoder on the PC (WinDVD, Sonic/Cinemaster, PowerDVD). This is already of high enough quality to satisfy most comparison needs. The next level would be to use a (not necessarily real-time working) reference high precision float-point decoder on the PC to obtain the screenshots. Or use an reference hardware MPEG decoder in an external DVD player (Panasonic players generally have the best), route the signal all-digital to the PC via SDI and store the stills there.

'These' screenshots analyze the real data encoded on the DVD. Again, no 'system' is involved. This is equipment independent.

The same can be done with HD MPEG streams.

This is one such typical comparison taking from my Fifth Element Superbit vs non-Superbit review:




And this is for example a comparison of the R1 Superbit of Vertical Limit vs the HD version:

Vertical Limit Superbit vs HD

I am sure David and a lot of others here knew this important 'distinction' between 2 completely different forms of 'screenshots'. But i don't anyone reading this to get confused.

I will try to prepare a few screenshots showing the compression problems in Finding Nemo and probably a comparison shot against Monsters and Toy Story 2.

Most likely not before tomorrow, though.


Regards
Bjoern


P.S. Yes, Toy Story 2 is the best effort yet from Pixar 'compression wise'. Finding Nemo obviously the worst (no surprise with this low bitrate). Monsters Inc is somewhere in between.

 

[Rob Tomlin]

I always try to use the term "screen capture" to describe what is done when using a DVD PC software program (such as PowerDVD) to obtain "screenshots", and the term "screen shots" to describe the procedure of using a camera (digital or film) to take a picture off an actual screen and then converting to JPEG format to put on the 'net.

I certainly agree that avoiding the photographic process is a must when it comes to accurately conveying what is on the DVD itself.

 

[Sebastien David]

guys, just to add to the discussion, I found a lot to be desired with this DVD as well, both watching it on my computer screen and my X1 on a 80-inche wide screen. unacceptable when they had two discs. screw the foolscreen version, give us a good widescreen one!!

my screenshots:
http://sebdavid.iquebec.ifrance.com/...d/pdvd_000.jpg
http://sebdavid.iquebec.ifrance.com/...d/pdvd_001.jpg
http://sebdavid.iquebec.ifrance.com/...d/pdvd_002.jpg

screenshots from another source are also available, but I won't directly link to them here, as it may increase his bandwidth more than he would want. I will give the link to another lively discussion on a french speaking forum, the links are within.
http://www.montrealdvd.com/topic.asp...13&whichpage=1

there ya go!

 

[Tim Glover]

Thought this looked terrific on my 106 inch 16x9 display. A little soft here and there, but otherwise detailed and great color. Sound was very good too.

A great movie that to me, deserves a Best Picture nod outside of the animated category.

 

[Mike_G]

I was very excited to get Finding Nemo the other day. I popped it in only to be disappointed by the artifacting and banding that's been reported here. However, I didn't get a chance to see if anyone's had the problem until today. Looks like I wasn't the only one!

Was it distracting? I tried not to let it be. I never saw FN in the theater - I saw it at the Apple Worldwide Developer's Conference on day 3. Apple showed it to the WWDC attendees. The video was stunning (although someone reversed the audio). I was hoping to get at LEAST that kind of quality from the DVD. Alas, it suffered from compression. :frowning:

Mike

 

[kehi]

This post reminds me that I need to get this for my niece for Christmas

 

[Aaron Telsey]

I picked this film up based on the review you guys posted, and am glad I did! One of my favorite movies so far this year (even though it came out a year ago). Thanks.

 

[Phil Carter]

Bjoern, any chance we could get those screencaps you mentioned? I know you're a busy fellow, but I'd like to have some proof of the color banding put up so I know I'm not going out of my mind. It's the only thing that detracts from an otherwise wonderful presentation of the film, in my opinion.

cheers,
Phil