How reliable are audiophile websites' reviews?

Discussion in 'AV Receivers' started by eddieZEN, Aug 8, 2006.

  1. eddieZEN

    eddieZEN Second Unit

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    Don't know how many of this forum's users also browse AVS Forum, so I wanted to share this developing thread on a topic that I think we've all wondered about at some point during our pursuit of this hobby.

    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...13#post8164713

    Page 5, Post #142 is a detailed analysis of one such "audiophile website" that I invite you all to give me feedback on, either here or on AVS directly.

    I guess morbid curiousity just got the better of me. That and too much caffeine yesterday morning that I had to work off in the evening. : )
     
  2. eddieZEN

    eddieZEN Second Unit

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    well, that thread just got closed by AVS. About what I expected, and why I had posted it on this forum as a back-up.
     
  3. eddieZEN

    eddieZEN Second Unit

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    Just for the record, here are my replies to Gene DelaSalla's reply and to Nick250's post, which AVS prevented me from posting at the last minute:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala
    Amazing someone finds the time to expend so much misguided energy on a conspiracy theory like this while at the same time doing such a poor job of presenting all of the facts.

    First off you missed a whole bunch of advertisers, though we don’t have nearly as much as any of the print magazines such as Sound & Vision, or HT Magazine, NOR do we have nearly the # of advertisers as other online sites such as AVREV.com, Soundstage or others. By your logic no publication with advertisers should be trusted. I guess you should just rely on Consumer Reports for A/V info. They do great 1 or 2 paragraph non tech reviews of equipment that I am sure will satisfy your needs since you don’t have much technical capabilities and an obvious short attention span.

    Your spread sheet sells an interesting story but you fail to include many of the other manufacturers we included in these guides that don’t advertise with us such as: Furman Sound, RTI Remotes, APC AV, Berkline, Continental Seating, SpeakerCraft, Rotel, Russsound, Panasonic, and others. You also fail to mention that we only recommend products we have direct experience with via formal reviews and/or personal hands on experience at trade shows or professional installations. You also fail to mention that we offer many alternatives in each category from the likes of Marantz, Pioneer, Rotel, etc.

    It’s nice that you think you can fully asses our site with over 7 years of content in a matter of 10 minutes. One wonders if you apply the same level of thoroughness in your day job. One also wonders if you perhaps work for a competing online or print magazine whose sole purpose here is to fabricate a conspiracy theory against us to push your own agenda. As far as I am concerned you are as much a sockpuppet for a competing online or print magazine as we are scrupulous in our intentions of providing a useful and educational service to this industry. I enjoy a good conspiracy theory just as you do so perhaps we can both play this game together. I bet you are also into the conspiracy theories about the Moon Landing Hoax and the 9/11 Scandal. Entertaining to say the least but one wonders why you spend so much time creating spreadsheets and statistics against us if you’re NOT a shill in the industry with a personal vendetta against us.


    Well, it's obvious that your reading skills leave a little to be desired. I'll excuse that because as you have stated elsewhere, you are an awfully busy person running such a huge and vital website as Audioholics.

    Here, let me restate some of my points in the analysis you quoted:

    1. I said this was only a PARTIAL analysis (duh, it's in the thread title for God's sake) as I have not had the time to scour your entire website. When I do, I will be sure to post another similar analysis.



    2. My spreadsheet specifically includes only "relevant" products, which it clearly defines as being the same kind of products that your advertisers sell. Why on earth would I want to add the plush HT armchairs and popcorn machine that one of your "recommended systems" frivolously includes in the tally?

    The sole purpose of the analysis was to see if your reviews and recs covered the full range of industry products...or MAINLY industry products whose manufacturers advertise in your website. For example, if one of your advertisers was Popcorn Machine Company X yet you posted a favorable review of Popcorn Machine Y or recommended Popcorn Machine Y in one of your "recommended systems"---now that would be remarkable wouldn't it?



    3. I never claimed to present my analysis of a small part of your website as being viewed in comparison with OTHER websites or magazines. I was only looking at YOUR website because a number of posters on this thread have challenged me to come up with some substantiation of my original (and admittedly inflammatory) unflattering remarks about Audioholics' credibility. So why are you brining this up? Sounds like the classic "well I might do A,B, or C but just look at how much Tom Dick and Harry also do A, B, or C!"




    BTW, you accuse me of being a paranoid conspiracy theorist from the first line of your post, then in the last line wondering if I am a shill working for a "competeing online/print magazine"---LOL that is priceless! Attacking not my analysis or methods but my personal character...yes that's very mature and classy isn't it? Pretty much on par with all of your staff and supporters' responses on this thread so far, sad to say.

    SURELY you can do better. Post back with some actual links and verifiable numbers, rather than this childish tirade and then we can actually have a conversation.




    And lastly, I'm surprised that nobody has ever done what I did before. It was hardly rocket science. Your website is pretty much an open book in terms of linkages between review pattersn and advertisers.

    I mean, 75% of the "Recommended Systems" products being from your advertisers??? You go and review (relatively fairly) say a dozen high-end HT separates from non-advertisers, yet the only power source you recommend even for your $25K and $75K systems are the Denon 4805 and 5805? LOL that's a hoot and a holler all right.

    =========


    Because now there are concrete numbers and names to talk about, rather than speculation and hearsay.

    If my numbers and analysis are skewed, I totally welcome the opportunity to be corrected---preferably without the pathetic ad hominem attacks that the Audioholics staff and supporters have been consistently dishing out, in the absence of precisely the type of rigorous empirical evidence or reasoned argumentation that their website claims to be based upon.
     
  4. eddieZEN

    eddieZEN Second Unit

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    Well, it's obvious that your reading skills leave a little to be desired. I'll excuse that because as you have stated elsewhere, you are an awfully busy person running such a huge and vital website as Audioholics.

    Here, let me restate some of my points in the analysis you quoted:

    1. I said this was only a PARTIAL analysis (duh, it's in the thread title for God's sake) as I have not had the time to scour your entire website. When I do, I will be sure to post another similar analysis.



    2. My spreadsheet specifically includes only "relevant" products, which it clearly defines as being the same kind of products that your advertisers sell. Why on earth would I want to add the plush HT armchairs and popcorn machine that one of your "recommended systems" frivolously includes in the tally?

    The sole purpose of the analysis was to see if your reviews and recs covered the full range of industry products...or MAINLY industry products whose manufacturers advertise in your website. For example, if one of your advertisers was Popcorn Machine Company X yet you posted a favorable review of Popcorn Machine Y or recommended Popcorn Machine Y in one of your "recommended systems"---now that would be remarkable wouldn't it?



    3. I never claimed to present my analysis of a small part of your website as being viewed in comparison with OTHER websites or magazines. I was only looking at YOUR website because a number of posters on this thread have challenged me to come up with some substantiation of my original (and admittedly inflammatory) unflattering remarks about Audioholics' credibility. So why are you brining this up? Sounds like the classic "well I might do A,B, or C but just look at how much Tom Dick and Harry also do A, B, or C!"




    BTW, you accuse me of being a paranoid conspiracy theorist from the first line of your post, then in the last line wondering if I am a shill working for a "competeing online/print magazine"---LOL that is priceless! Attacking not my analysis or methods but my personal character...yes that's very mature and classy isn't it? Pretty much on par with all of your staff and supporters' responses on this thread so far, sad to say.

    SURELY you can do better. Post back with some actual links and verifiable numbers, rather than this childish tirade and then we can actually have a conversation.




    And lastly, I'm surprised that nobody has ever done what I did before. It was hardly rocket science. Your website is pretty much an open book in terms of linkages between review pattersn and advertisers.

    I mean, 75% of the "Recommended Systems" products being from your advertisers??? You go and review (relatively fairly) say a dozen high-end HT separates from non-advertisers, yet the only power source you recommend even for your $25K and $75K systems are the Denon 4805 and 5805? LOL that's a hoot and a holler all right.

    =========

    Originally Posted by Nick250
    [/quote]Like Audioholics or not, why this endless repetition of saying the same thing over and over and over again? Really odd.[/quote]


    Because now there are concrete numbers and names to talk about, rather than speculation and hearsay.

    If my numbers and analysis are skewed, I totally welcome the opportunity to be corrected---preferably without the pathetic ad hominem attacks that the Audioholics staff and supporters have been consistently dishing out, in the absence of precisely the type of rigorous empirical evidence or reasoned argumentation that their website claims to be based upon.

    This begs the question of how soon THIS thread will be closed down too, as soon as Audioholics learns about it and strong-arms the mods here.
     
  5. BrianTwig

    BrianTwig Second Unit

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    I, being a complete moron when it comes to AV equipment and technology in general have put little weight in the "reviews" of products by sites, and even industry people.

    Example. I just built a new system for my living room. Receiver, speakers, CD player, and sub. Display is coming later in the year.

    I went to local audio shops and auditioned stuff and got recomendations for products. Then came here to search threads about them and post threads about them. Got a good feeling from responses as to if the guys at the local audio shop where just feeding me bull or actually recommending the stuff that would suite my needs within my budget and seeked out alternatives.

    I ended up getting exactly what was recommended by the local audio shop except for the Sub. I got an SVS.

    Both local audio shops claimed ignorance on SVS and said they never heard of them and stuck to their suggestions and "warned" me about SVS from what they saw on SVS's web site. Things like 'its looks like they power them with car radio amps so beware' and 'it seems their claims are in contrast to the laws of physics'.

    But after discussions on here and with Ron at SVS I had no worries when I pulled the trigger and got the PB12-NSD/2. And without question it is the greatest sub I have ever heard and is worth far more than the measley $998 I paid for it delivered.

    I sent the local audio shop guys my review of the SVS sub and that they should do some further investigating on SVS and try them out for themselves because they will likley replace their own subs at home with an SVS. Neither ever responded back to me. Not surprised.

    Not sure what this has to do with the thread topic, but owell.
     
  6. eddieZEN

    eddieZEN Second Unit

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    yeah, local shops know full well that Internet-direct brands are a lethal threat to their bread and butter. The scaremongering you received is fairly typical, I'm afraid.

    Personally I'd put more credence in conclusions drawn from lengthy research and interaction on a wide number of forums than I would from most "audiophile" websites. This is not to say that everything written on those websites is by definition rubbish of course. I would just take it with many grains of salt.
     
  7. BrianTwig

    BrianTwig Second Unit

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    Want a great example? One of the local audio shops, who had suggested what I eventually went with had sky high prices. So I went into his shop and said I will pay you X for the receiver and Y for the speakers so we are Z 'out the door.' He replied that he couldn't do that and the price is what the price is. I thanked him for his suggestions and help with my questions, but I have to buy the items at site X for the savings. He then went into a warning about how online sellers aren't authorized dealers and I won't get a warranty and if there is a problem I am in trouble.

    I then had him go to the manufacturers web sites and clik on the links that said "Authorized Online Dealers" and showed him who I was going to buy from. He knew he was in trouble. I again offered him the previous amounts plus a few more dollars because I would prefer to purchase local. He refused.

    Worst of all for him, besides the loss of the sale (and future sales as I still have 2 more systems to build in my new house) is that if I do have a problem with one of the items, he is going to be the one handling my warranty claim as the local authorized dealer and warranty center.

    Its really a shame too as he runs a top notch shop and is exceptionally knowledgable and always happy to help you out and answer questions. But his unwillingness to work with me in pricing cost him the sale and more.
     
  8. Terry St

    Terry St Second Unit

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    From what I read on that AVSforum thread, the argument basically boils down to two points:

    1. A suspiciously large proportion of products reviewed come from advertisers.
    2. Most reviews of advertiser's products are positive.

    Other points, such as that their recommended systems mostly contain advertiser's products really are a direct result of the above two points, and are therefore redundant.

    Regarding point #2, on some review sites and many magazines you'll be hard pressed to find a single blatantly negative review, and audioholics appears to be no exception from my brief, cursory examination. Printed media suffers from this same problem, so calling this a problem of online review sites or audioholics in specific may not be valid. While audioholics' reviews do appear to be overwhelmingly positive, they do use a point system to sum up their results. If you were to tabulate all their reviews and found a higher numeric average score for advertiser's products vs. those of other companies then you might have a case, but probably one with a rather low confidence since the sample size is rather small. (Audioholics doesn't appear to be that well established in that they don't have a very large body of reviews under their belt.) Feel free to post your results. I'm far too lazy for such a study. [​IMG]

    As for point #1, they do state that they only review products that manufacturers send to them. There is obviously going to be a strong correlation between companies who think that a review by audioholics will help their business and between companies who think that advertising on audioholics will help their business. Conversely, if a company isn't aware of the existence of audioholics at all, then they aren't going to advertise or send products to review. That a larger proportion of audioholic's reviewed products are from their advertisers shouldn't be any surprise whatsoever, and does not necessarily indicate a selection bias on the part of audioholics. You'll note the same trend occurs in pretty much every review site and print magazine.

    From what I've seen, you haven't managed to cast any legitimate doubt on audioholics or online review sites at all yet. What you have done is brought up some of the weaknesses of *all* audio review media, online or print.
     
  9. eddieZEN

    eddieZEN Second Unit

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    Terry,

    You have some of the picture but not all, IMHO. You're missing a 3rd point: a suspicious large proportion of products RECOMMENDED by Audioholics come from advertisers...75% of the Electronics, Speakers/Subs, and Cables/Interconnects in the "6 Recommended HT Systems" come from their advertisers? Are we to seriously believe that this preponderance of advertisers' products not only being glowingly reviewed but outright recommended is just a coincidence?

    I mean, is it not more than a little fishy that despite giving generally positive reviews to almost a dozen different high-end HT separates *not* by advertisers, that Audioholics' recommended power sources for their $25K and $75K are the Denon 4805 and 5805? OK, I'll grant you that there's an equal chance that the person who made that choice was retarded rather than corrupt...who in their right mind with a $25K budget would buy a $2500 AVR to run their system? Is it just a coincidence that said AVR happens to be from one of only 2 receiver manufacturers to advertise on their site?

    By no means am I implying that Audioholics is unique in their practices compared to other sites. However they do seem the most aggressive at pretending to be some sort of highly ethical, no-nonsense, consumer-advocate type of organization, as evidenced by their "Pursuing the truth in Audio and Video" motto. By setting themselves up on so lofty a pedestal, and then aggressively censoring and stifling criticism on their own forum and other forums, I feel no qualms about pulling back their facade.

    And to be honest when I set out to do this tally, after being challenged to produce some substantiative evidence by Audioholics staff and supporters much earlier in that AVS thread, I did not expect to find such blatant red flags. But since those challengers claimed that I had nothing to stand on other than paranoid hearsay, I felt obliged to do a little simple counting and browsing.
     
  10. Terry St

    Terry St Second Unit

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    Maybe you're right in saying that they have pretensions beyond what they're capable of delivering. I don't read their site or any of the audioholics boards on this forum or any other, but judging from the small number of reviews on their site they're along way from being able to claim comprehensive coverage of the entire audio industry. If you can show they made that claim then they're definitely stretching the truth. However, you're acting as if you have a smoking gun that proves some kind of conspiracy, and you don't. All you've shown is that the same correlation between advertisers and reviewed products exists on audioholics as on pretty much every other A/V magazine and web-site out there. You see conspiracy, but all I see is an artifact of the economics of A/V reviews.
     
  11. Phil A

    Phil A Producer
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    Even with magazines, reviewers get accomodation sales and magazines get ad revenue. They don't disclose what they get so you're dealing with a failure to bash review that may be that way due to a potential conflict of interest. From a review you can get a sense of features and performance. If you follow a particular reviewer over a period of time you can also get a sense of their preferences.

    Do you read reviews of cars and buy one based on reviews alone? How about houses? Kitchen appliances? etc.

    Everything ever made had positives and negatives and will also probably break at some point. There are things online info and forums are great for. I learned that AVS way back when is not what I would personally define as a real forum. That's why in almost 5 yrs. I have a total of few over 400 posts and probably have not posted more than a few dozen times over the probably almost the last 4. I'll get some info there but I don't find it a useful place for me to exchange ideas and get somthing worthwhile from it.
     
  12. BradJudy

    BradJudy Stunt Coordinator

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    IMO, this general topic has been beaten to death on forums and in print. Most of the time, the focus is on Stereophile (perhaps because it's the most prominent publication) and the various reasons behind any correlations (I have yet to see a real statistical analysis that demonstrates correlation between advertizing dollars spent and positive reviews). In short, most publications don't publish really bad reviews even if they have done the leg work - it causes a lot of strife. Heck, even minor criticisms in otherwise good reviews can cause ongoing arguing in print or online - this is commonly seen the the Stereophile company response letters (and I've seen the arguments continue online for long periods of time). While I don't know the inside of the business, I suspect that this also hurts review sample submissions or ad revenue.

    I've met a number of people who write for various audio publications and every one is interested in reviewing things they hear good things about - none of them want to spend time on something that people tell them isn't good. Heck, if I wrote reviews for a living, I would want to always be listening to good stuff. This can be done because there is no shortage of good products out there. It isn't like the car world where a magazine reviews the only five cars of a certain type in a certain price range and tells the good and the bad of the only five options. These are each articles about one, or a small number, of products that the reviewer expects to be good and for every product that is reviewed, there are five to ten that aren't because they don't have a good rep, the review doesn't know about them, or there just isn't enough time in the day. What does this mean? Reviews tend to be of good products, thus they tend to get good reviews.

    Some of the alt-publications have focused on lesser known brands and that's cool, but they still want to review things they expect to be good. Could a publication specialize in reviewing a more varied selection in a particular price range? Sure. They could intentionally pick products that they hear good and bad things about and put it all out there. It might even be a viable publication. They would probably have to buy and sell every sample because no one would want to send them review samples, and they might spend a lot of time in conflict with companies, but it might work.

    I, for one, don't want to read a publication that picks products randomly to review because there will be a lot of content about things not worth buying. I want one that picks things they expect to be good. If it turns out they aren't that great, do I want them to put it out there? Heck yes! But, as many teachers have said, would I be happy if the entire class really earned an A? Sure! I don't want a publication to make an artificial grading curve just to make people feel better about the legitimacy of their reviews.

    Do companies spend more ad dollars in publications that have said nice things about them? Entirely possible. Does this skew the reviews? In a good publication, no. Is it possible it does for some? Sure. Places like Stereophile intentionally separate those aspects of their business to minimize influence on the reviews (I'm not saying Stereophile is an angel, but I think they do many things right, like this). Do I know if this particular site lets ads influence reviews? No, I don't know their business or them personally. Do I think this brief analysis demonstrates that they let ads influence reviews? No.
     
  13. eddieZEN

    eddieZEN Second Unit

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    You seem to have also missed the last two paragraphs of my conclusion in that analysis piece:

    "...I feel that for the most part Audioholics does have its redeeming features and hold no personal ill will towards its staff. My goal in this discussion is to simply provide a reality check for those people who seem to take their marketing-driven slogans a bit too literally. They are not EVIL INCARNATE (that might be Bose, LOL!) but they are hardly saints, for crying out loud.

    We all know what the bottom line is: Business is business, and bills have to be paid."


    For some reason there seems to be a perception, largely fostered by the hysterical ad-hominem smokescreen response thrown up by the Audioholics staff, that I am singling them out and demonizing them.

    Let me again, for the umpteenth time, reiterate: I am not. I am fully aware that Audioholics represent the norm rather than the exception in the audio press, despite their ludicrous company motto. This whole putting-Audioholics-under-a-microscope thing started mainly because one particular poster on that now-closed AVS thread ("Adrian Mills") challenged me to expand on a few unflattering comments I made in passing about Audioholics.

    For a progression of events, refer to postings #83, 90, and 92 on that original AVS thread.

    And to be honest, the pompous, overbearing, and wannabe-bullying responses of the Audioholics staff on the Ascend Forum thread (also now closed) did not exactly charm me either:

    http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=1867
    (Page 7, post #64)
     
  14. eddieZEN

    eddieZEN Second Unit

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    Brad/Judy,

    I appreciate your informative post, esp. the industry-insider angle.

    However, I find that the numbers I came up with during my count are still difficult to shrug off. I mean, 16 out of 24 articles/reviews about AVRs are on the same 2 manufacturers both of whom just HAPPEN to be site advertisers? As I wrote in my original piece, I find it hard to believe that Audioholics staff truly believe that nobody else on God's green earth makes good AVRs besides those 2, or that only those 2 companies saw fit to send them sample AVRs to write about. No I would not expect a comprehensive review of every single AVR under the sun, but surely a wider sample than that is not too much to ask?

    If my analysis methodology were full of holes, I would expect the Audioholics staff to expose those holes quickly and effortlessly...in short, I would expect to become very embarassed very fast. Instead, their reaction has been:

    1. Hysterical personal attacks and accusations

    2. Elementary-school rationalizations ("but Dick Jane and Harry do it too!")

    3. Repressive, goonlike behavior designed to coerce different forums to close down threads

    The only two possible conclusions I can see is:

    1. These folks live inside some kind of bubble and are totally unaccustomed to, and/or intolerant of, negative feedback

    or

    2. They feel that they do have something to hide, even while insisting that that they are the norm rather than the exception in the audio press (an assertion I would readily agree with).
     
  15. Phil A

    Phil A Producer
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    Most magazines that accept advertising are skewed to a degree. They generally can't blast a product even if they think it sucks and piss off a big advertiser. That's only natural and one needs to take a review in the context of such business pressure.

    Keep in mind there are some websites (I have no idea how AVS works) that have sponsors pay directly for servers. I've seen some of those. They tend to go a little off the deep end when someone asks for a recommendation and they get choices from people that includes both forum sponsors and competing products that are not sponsors. I've seen moderators and owners of such sites chastise the poster as giving away free advertising for answering the question posed. Some people refer to those as forums, I don't. Those to me are somewhat like infomercials. At least with infomericials, those I've seen show it as a paid advertisement and I believe by law they are required to disclose it as such. If they did not, it would be dishonest at a minimum and perhaps fraud. The thing I resent about such infomercial websites is when they hold themselves out to be something they are not. There may not be requirements in the same manner as broadcast TV and that is just being sleezy. Those websites should have prominent disclaimers that the server costs are paid directly by particular sponsors so that everyone understands why they are receiving a cheerleading effort.
     
  16. BradJudy

    BradJudy Stunt Coordinator

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    I'm far from an insider, but I have had the pleasure of meeting and speaking with people in the business. I even count some as friends.

    Let's take a closer look at the numbers. Going by their index of reviews, this is the list of different receiver models reviewed:

    Denon AVR-3805
    Denon AVR-4306
    Denon AVR-5805
    Harman Kardon AVR 130
    Marantz SR-18
    Onkyo TX-DS989
    Onkyo TX-SR601
    Pioneer VSX-516 Receiver
    Pioneer VSX-815 Receiver
    Sony STR-DA7100ES Receiver
    Sony TA-E9000ES
    Sony STR-DA4ES
    Yamaha RX-Z9
    Yamaha RX-V2400
    Yamaha RX-V2500
    Yamaha RX-V2600
    Yamaha RX-V4600
    Yamaha RX-V1
    Yamaha RX-Z1

    Definitely Yamaha heavy, so I imagine someone over there likes Yamaha recievers. The rest of the distribution isn't bad IMO. Would I have picked a different list, sure, but that's because I have my own preferences. Could they have picked up a couple of other popular items like the Panasonic 55/70 receivers? Sure. But, Denon and Yamaha are very popular, so I can't fault them much on that. Particularly since three of the Yamahas are simply following the same model as it changed each year - a nice type of comparison. Would it have been nice to see it done on another line too, perhaps a comperable Denon? Sure, but there are only so many hours in the day.

    Lets look at the lineup of pre/pros:

    Anthem Statement D1 SSP
    Aragon Soundstage
    Cary Cinema 6
    Emotiva DMC-1
    Integra DTC-9.4
    Integra Research RDC-7
    Integra Research RDC-7.1
    Parasound Halo C 1
    Parasound Halo C 2
    Sherbourn PT-7000
    Sunfire Theater Grand III

    That's looks like a great distribution to me. Hitting the big names and not too heavy on any one brand.

    DVD players (minus software ones):

    Audiovox VBP800 Portable DVD Player
    Denon DVD-2900 DVD Player
    Denon DVD-2910 DVD Player
    Denon DVD-3910 DVD Player
    Denon DVD-5900 DVD Player
    Denon DVD-5910 vs DVD-5900 Features
    Helios HVD2085 1080p DVD Player
    Marantz DV-9500 DVD Player
    Marantz DV6500 w/ JLTi Mods DVD Player
    NeuNeo HVD2085 1080p DVD Player
    Oppo DV-970HD Universal DVD Player NEW
    Oppo DV971H DVD Player
    Panasonic DVD-S97 DVD Player
    Philips SACD 1000 DVD and SACD Player
    RCA DRC232N DVD Player w/ ClearPlay
    Sony SCD-CE 775 SACD Changer Audience Mod
    Sony DVP-NS999ES DVD and SACD Player
    Yamaha DVD-C750 DVD/SACD Changer
    Yamaha DVD-S2300MK2 Universal Player

    A bit Denon heavy, but Denon is very popular in this area. It's got the budget sensation Oppo, Panasonic and Neu players as well as some standard companies (Sony, Yamaha, Marantz).

    As for the behavior of the people, I can't speak much to that. Do I think it means their reviews are biased and dont' stand up to analysis? No. Just because someone doesn't make the best argument for themselves or their company doesn't mean there isn't a solid argument to me made. (One can argue that a company/individual should be adept at justifying what it/he/she does) Would it have been my approach? No, it was more reactive and defensive than I would have gone if I were them. Anyone who has been on these forums for long has seen people (some individuals, some company representatives) get defensive and ad hom (although I also think using terms like "goonlike" is returning the ad hom favor). I think companies are best served taking the high road, laying out their approach, and letting their actions speak.

    Note that my above lists are not a statistical analysis, but I'm not going to spend time on that, nor does it seem neccessary here.
     
  17. Terry St

    Terry St Second Unit

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    Maybe they just don't know the difference between a positive correlation due to other factors and an actual causal link either.
     
  18. Phil A

    Phil A Producer
    Supporter

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    Oh no![​IMG]
     
  19. Philip Hamm

    Philip Hamm Lead Actor

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    Completely unreliable and baseless. Generally, but not always, the more "audiophile" the more meaningless.

    Unfortunately, most "audiophiles" are unscientific and easily sold on stuff that reinforces their preconcieved notions.

    Some do honestly pursue audio without crazy stuff that makes no sense, some just like playing with toys.
     
  20. eddieZEN

    eddieZEN Second Unit

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    Ditto!
     

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