HK 525 vs Denon 3803? (1 Viewer)

[Doug Brewster]

Mike,


Re: Please re-read the area of the article that refers to the Canton woofers. You'll see that, the woofers not withstanding (and there were referred to by my term "most areas"), it did outperform the others in the other areas, with the exception of the 5802.

Re: "shutdown at punishing levels, as other receivers have" refuting "It's amps out-performed all but the 5802 in most areas and in driving MartinLogan Odyssey electrostats (a very demanding speaker) out-spec'd all."
Read the rest of the article's statement about this event. It will inform you that the shut down occurred at slightly higher levels than the others (author references this with something like, "if memory serves correctly").

As (one area of) your fault-finding with HK refers to gimmickry and the other $1000 recievers are rated higher but perform at the same or lower levels, I have to ask, considering that HK's receivers consistently meet or exceed their specs, whose are more accurate and believable and who is misleading the consumer?

"most reviews from Stereo review and Audio Magazine that rated dynamics by Yamaha, Denon, and Onkyo, have always bested their under estimated rating", then these reviews are unreliable sources. They are also in opposition to your own cited reference.

Re: most of the rest of your responses, I can clearly see that your actual and your level of experience is unique in many areas. I will leave it at that and allow other subscribers to address their further concerns here as we are truly going over the same ground now and getting nowhere. I believe our disagreements have ceased to be of any value in this thread.

Thanks

Doug

 

[DonJ]

I was hit on my bike (GSXR-750) by another bike it caused the clip-on (handle bar) to snap back into left hand breaking it between the thumb and fore finger you could squeeze it and it would go into place but when you let go it would pop back out. I could have killed the guy I was even riding with him so there is no reason he should have been that close but he was much worse off, while I was wearing my leathers helmet and gloves he was weraing shorts T-shirt helemt and gloves, he had road rash all over pretty much a bloody reck, also my bike didn't sustain much damages thanks to the frame sliders, so I rebuilt it into a full race and show bike.

I feel pretty good, right now I listening to the best recorded Jazz CD's I've ever heard "Jazziz Percussion on fire". The thing is HK gives you their info so you can make an educated choice most other companies don't give specifics because they have some thing to hide.
Also I would never by a 5803 even thou I think they are a great receiver, at that price range I'll be getting seprates (ANTHEM AVM20 pre/pro and PCA7 amp) that will sound better than any reciever and it's only $400.00 more in coin.

Take two of these and call me in the morning

Don

 

[Doug Brewster]

DonJ,

While I consider what you say as supportive to what I've been saying and well substantiated, it really won't make any difference to those who are determined to not believe it. I thought the problem might be definitions, but lost my resource for this. I was willing to let my own understanding of these be amended by an objective source but found out that definitions were not really the problem. Besides that, quoting objective sources is of no benefit. Additionally, it turns out, that even their own references are not effective in prying their prejudice from the objective discussion of fact.

Your quote from the website, in conjunction with the chart cited by Mike in earlier posts might allow others not only to see the facts but have them explained. It can truly be useful to some... Obviously, some others won't be swayed and logical argument "don't enter into it." It's simple prejudice which is something of which most of us are in some way guilty. However, some won't allow anything to get in the way of the need to dislike a particular thing. Hoping that isn't true of me, but, on things that are truly important to me, it might be... Audio components are not such an area for me and why that would be, for anyone, is a mystery.

Have seen your posts in other areas and wondered about your hand. Hope this new surgery works for you.

Doug

 

[Jonathan_D]

It's simple prejudice which is something of which most of us are in some way guilty. However, some won't allow anything to get in the way of the need to dislike a particular thing.

You are exactly right, which is why "listening" tests involving electronics should all be taken with large doses of salt and then thrown out! If its not a DBT or at least a blind test, don't believe what people claim anymore than you would the results of a taste test that wasn't blind.

You say you can tell the difference - I say prove it!

 

[Dave Ma]

This is what I am talking about.
HK states:
Our amplifiers (50 watts):

We still rate our amplifiers the old-fashioned way - all frequencies with both channels driven. So "50 watts" is 50 watts. Twenty-five years ago, a 50-watt amp was very powerful. These days you can go to a store and hear a "300 watt" receiver and it won't impress; it lacks dynamic punch.

With both channels driven! (2) What about the other channels?
Let us see what the WPC are with "ALL" " 5 "channels driven at once! Not just 2 channels.

 

[Jonathan_D]

Dave, you're not reading the responses. HK does rate their receivers with all channels driven. As I pointed out in a post above:

For example, the HK 520 is rated at 85 watts per channel in stereo mode 20hz to 20khz with

 

[Phil*K]

Dan,

That still doesn't tell me where your frature is located. Is it on the base of the thumb that's broken? Just my curiosity.

Doug, while I do look at the web site to see what components and features what I'm thinking of buying has. Any of the other Rhetoric is simply propaganda and that would go for any manufacture. All of them do it. If you like your HK that's all that counts for you.

And yes please don't guote the source show the link. Finially I have no need to dislike anything. Its my ears that have to be the judge. After that I search the web for reliability.

Have a good one,

Phil

 

[Jay Mitchosky]

Play nice boys.

 

[Dave Ma]

Jonathan,
As they state 74 wpc all channels driven. Now one would think that means 74 wpc all channels driven at the same time! Not 2 channels driven at one time, and say "ALL channels driven. Kinda deceptive in my book!

Anyway it's getting Hot in here! The only HK I would want is the handgun anyway. Later........

 

[Phil*K]

Mike,

Thanks for the Kind words. However, I doubt I'm ready for prime time . However, I'm glad you found the info useful. As far as Marantz is concerned, I haven't listened to one since I Traded the one I had for an old Kenwood tube receiver many years ago. I'm not sure I would like the sound either, but they have a special place for me being my first and I hope they turn things around.

Yeah, the C36 I bought doen't have 3:2 pulldown and from what I've seen on this site if not very highly thought of, but its a lot better than the Philips IMO. I wish I had known about this site before I bought it, but I can live with it for now.

Yeah, I'm really happy about the year trade up I got from Tweeters and I did get the manager to sign the reciept.

I agree with what you said about the RX-V2300. When I bought the Denon from Tweeters I also was considering the RX-V3300. And while I have read posts on here that say it has the "same" amplifier section as the V1 I, like you, found that at higher volumes it started to sound harsh. This is why I went with the 3803. Not to piss of any 3300 owners but, IMO, I would have to recommend the 3803 over the RX-V3300. And you should be ecstatic about the 3803's performance it is excellent

Just before I traded the 3803 I listened to the V1 and the 3300 side by side and found the same thing as I increased the volume the 3300 started to sound harsh, but the V1 kept its character. The V1 and possibly the Z1 for some reason seem to be different animals.

LOL, I did the same thing with Dish and had it for many years. I originally changed because of sports, but like you I found the picture to be better and really had more movie packages. I lived in an area that had no local channels and was able to get the major networks in both LA and NY, which was great for Sunday football.

Thanks again for the kind words and the pic of the V1.

All the best,

Phil

 

[Dave Ma]

Wondering why higher end Audio shops do not carry Harman Kardon stuff but they carry Denon and Marantz? Only places I see that carry HK is like Circuit city, Best Buy, etc.. low end store chains. Anyone know why? I have never seen HK in your better HIFI stores.

 

[Jonathan_D]

Probably because HK authorizes on-line sales and the specialty shops couldn't keep up their inflated profit margins selling HK!

 

[Dan_Diesel]

Hey guys,

What do you think about Dave Ma's idea about going with the ROTEL RSX 1055. I seen the review in The Home Theater mag. for the ROTEL RSX 1065 and it was one of the best reviews I've seen. I'm thinking about going and checking it out but I don't know if it's worth the drive (45 min.)
They said that they are selling it for $1800CAD and if I come in they can give me a better deal.

Thanks again for all the help.

Dan

 

[DonJ]

Mike how could you not see it? It's on the same exact page that you quoted. to selective reading.

 

[Doug Brewster]

Don and Jonathan:

Your wasting your time. Even when the reading is not selective, it's re-interpreted to support their own claims.

Phil,

You have absolutely convinced me. I also found out that Stereo Review (the most reliable entertainment electronics magazine in the English language*) did an under-cover investigation and the reason that Harman Kardon made up their own criteria for rating amplifiers was to use those to pass information on to terrorist organizations. The reason Denon and Yamaha don't meet specs it to fool terrorists into a false sense of security, thinking these products don't meet specs when they actually exceed them if evaluated using a secret code and the proper equipment. I lost the link, but I read it on the Internet so it must be true.

Dan,

Rotel is good stuff, but the 1065 is outstanding stuff (almost as good as separates). Of course, their strength is music (which is what you indicated as the most important). If the price of the 1065 is pretty close to the 3803 (and your going to spend the money), go with the Rotel. Haven't seen anything about the 1055, but Rotel usually makes a good product for the money. Go and listen and let us know what you think.

Another "bargain" receiver that has been getting good reports is the Pioneer Elite VSX-45TX
http://www.ca2k.com/pioneer1.html
The early builds had a problem with shut-down, but Pioneer recalled the unsold models and have employed a "fix". All the later models have this already built in. Evidently, it actually works. There are places that sell it for less than $900 (U.S.), but I don't know what they go for in the Great White North. If it's pretty close to the 3803 (and your going to spend the money), go with the 3803.


Doug

* as selected by those who believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny

 

[Jamey F]

You have absolutely convinced me. I also found out that Stereo Review (the most reliable entertainment electronics magazine in the English language*) did an under-cover investigation and the reason that Harman Kardon made up their own criteria for rating amplifiers was to use those to pass information on to terrorist organizations. The reason Denon and Yamaha don't meet specs it to fool terrorists into a false sense of security, thinking these products don't meet specs when they actually exceed them if evaluated using a secret code and the proper equipment. I lost the link, but I read it on the Internet so it must be true.

I knew there was more to all this audio stuff than just enjoyment. First, buying drugs helps terrorism and now this. Isn't there anything enjoyable left for just good old fashion capatilists or do the Terrorist have the "fun" market cornered?

 

[Dave Ma]

Dan,
Driving 45 minutes is worth your drive in gold for the Rotel. My friend just bought the RSX 1065 ( after hearing my Rotel stuff) and loves it to death. He did not have room for the seperates so he got the receiver. The owner of the store who carrys Denon, Marantz recommends the Rotel RSX 1065 and RSX 1055 over any of these. I was at the store for 1/2 hr and the RSX 1055 were flying out of the store. The RSX 1055 is $700 cheaper, so if you have a smaller room and do not have power hungry speakers then this is the better deal. The owner says that's why he sells so many of the RSX 1055's because of the huge price difference. Just a quality receiver thats worth your 45 minute drive anyday of the week.Give it a listen to

 

[Jonathan_D]

Ok Dave, read carefully now, direct from Harman's material on the 520:

Let's see, 85wpc both channels driven and 75wpc all channels driven - seems to me they have specified. Again, no deceit here.

BTW, I'm considering taking your sig a little more to heart!

 

[Dave Ma]

Thanks Jonathan for the post.
Someone else posted that it speced out in a test by S&V.

So I quess H&K and Rotel are the only 2 that I know of now.

I see that "ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN" thing all the time
but they are not driven all at once.
That is the deception I was refering to.
Glad to see it meets what is stated.

 

[Doug Brewster]

Dave Ma,

While I would not disagree with you assessment of Rotel as a quality product and well worth the money, here we disagree:

"have you ever thought about getting a ROTEL? They underate there amps, and are about the only manufacture that does underate their product."

If you look at the lab tests, HK also underates their products. Rotel and HK are two that consistantly meet their specs. Most others do not. That is not an argument that goes on to say they are of the same quality. It is simply to say that they are closer to the truth about the power available in their amps. I know you don't care for HK but I consider them to be a notch below Rotel for considerably less money for the same amplifier power. Again, will not say that they are as good a product. Will only say that for the money (what it really costs you, not what they list at), to listen to music, you can do better.

Doug