HiDef DVDs... Only thru digital connections?

Discussion in 'Playback Devices' started by Adam.Heckman, Feb 3, 2005.

  1. Adam.Heckman

    Adam.Heckman Second Unit

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    I'm eagerly awaiting HiDef movies on disc. However, my HDTV only has analog connections (philips 30pw850h). The picture thru these component inputs looks great, but I can't buy an upconverting dvd player such as the samsung 841 because they will only put HiDef out thru their digital ports (DVI).

    My question is this: will the new HD-DVD and/or Blue-ray discs have this same limitation? Will I be out of luck when they hit stores?

    Also, as a side question: has there been any preliminary estimate on what the players/discs will cost?

    Thanks to all of those who are 'in the know' and take the time to respond to this thread!
     
  2. ChuckSolo

    ChuckSolo Screenwriter

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    Well, there are some upconverting players that will upscale over component, but they are getting rare. I do know that my Scientific Atlanta cable box (3100 HD) outputs 1080i over component. Hopefully the new crop of HD DVD players will do the same. Keep in mind that your TV has a lot to do with the resolution of the HD signal. My RCA for example will only accept 480p and 1080i, no 720p or 768p.[​IMG]
     
  3. Mort Corey

    Mort Corey Supporting Actor

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    Well, my WAG would be that any HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player coming to market would only play its HD format over a digital connection with HDCP (or some such copy protection scheme). The will probably play current DVD formats over component/composite connections just to remain backward compatability.

    Cost?? Hmmmmm, Minimum two grand initially. As an aside, the current crop of upscaling players don't really offer HD playback, they just scale the existing material closer to the displays natvie format......and they will become extinct if and when a true HD unit becomes available.

    The winner between HD-DVD and Blue Ray is going to be the one that comes out with the "gotta have" software title(s) first.

    Mort
     
  4. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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    Since the upconverting DVD players today don't offer HD output over component video (with a few minor exceptions, as ChuckSolo points out), it only stands to reason that true HD players won't either. I hope this doesn't turn out to be the case, but the writing is on the wall.

    I believe Toshiba has mentioned a sub-$1,000 price...which means $999.99 of course!
     
  5. Jack Briggs

    Jack Briggs Executive Producer

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    What Johnny says, vis. price of the players. Toshiba announced that its first HD DVD players will be in the $1,000 range. As for connections, you can bet it will be HDMI for discs.
     
  6. ChuckSolo

    ChuckSolo Screenwriter

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    I really think Mort is correct on the HDCP issue. If that is truly the case, then players would have to either be DVI or HDMI capable in order for HDCP to work. That would also mean that the TV that is used is gonna have to be HDCP compliant too. As for me, I will not get a HD DVD player of any flavor until I see which standard is gonna be adopted by the industry as a whole. I was unfortunate enough to be on the wrong side in the VCR wars and was stuck with an expensive Betamax because of that ancient format skirmish. I never in the world thought that Sony was gonna lose that one. I believe however, that Sony isn't going to make the same mistake twice and will strive hard to position Blue-Ray as the leader; those guys ain't dumb. Owning a movie studio isn't gonna hurt either.[​IMG]
     
  7. John S

    John S Producer

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    It seems to me, even so, somebody would make a scaler that had the input, and could output it just about anyway you wanted. Maybe not aye? I mean if there is a buck to be made, it just seems somebody would find a way to make it.

    I'd be interested in such a good scaler right now. Take any source and output it to 1080i out the component video.

    An AVR that did this, would probably have me upgrading/downgrading to it, just for simplicity sake.
     
  8. Adam.Heckman

    Adam.Heckman Second Unit

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    Because I don't want to spend the bucks to upgrade the TV to one with digital inputs, how about this:

    Can a AVR with digital inputs send that signal out over it's component outputs? Right now I run my HD DVR thru the AVR (all component cables) along with my DVD player. If an AVR can take ALL incoming signals and send them out thru component cables, that could be where I upgrade to.

    Does anyone own such a beast?

    Edit: sorry john s, we were writing at the same time, and the same thoughts, at that!
     
  9. John S

    John S Producer

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    It just seems something like that eventually would make it's way to market. I'd settle for the scaler even right now. I like my 60" display very much. No DVI or HDMI though... But I knew about this, and bought it anyways!!
     
  10. Mort Corey

    Mort Corey Supporting Actor

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    IIRC, the flagship Denon 5805 has some kind of scaling circuitry does it not? I don't know if it outputs processed images over component or only thru its digital ports. Six grand is a little out of my league even so.

    I dunno Chuck...if Sony can find a way to blow it, even with their superior technological Blu-Ray format, They've sure shown that they can make a loser out of a winner in the past [​IMG] I think SACD might have made a more prominent showing (thus far anyway) had Sony not been.....well, Sony.

    Mort
     
  11. ChuckSolo

    ChuckSolo Screenwriter

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    I think one of the major factors is going to be on the data archival properties of the HDDVD format. Blue-Ray is definately the winner there. In the VHS vs. Beta war this was certainly a concern since Beta definately had a recordable space limitation. As for SACD, all agree that it definately IS a better resolution audio format. Unfortunately, most people on the pro low res side could care less about the superiority of SACD. Audiophiles aside, most of the "unwashed" masses really could give a rats a**. That coupled with the lack of software is gonna be what keeps SACD from really taking off universally. Even with all the criticism given it, its ability to play SACD discs makes the much maligned Samsung DVD HD841 worth its price, IMHO. I know I paid more than the asking price for the Samsung player for a plain old Techniques CD player back in the day. Mindsets have changed dramatically.
     
  12. Adam.Heckman

    Adam.Heckman Second Unit

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    Solo,

    For less money than the 841, I picked up my Pio 563a. Couldn't be happier. SACD and DVD-A. The video play back is pretty good too. I'm only looking at a 30 screen though. Anyways, what I'm saying is, for those of us that don't have DVI to reap the benifits of upscaling with the 841, the pio is cheaper and more versatile.
     
  13. ChuckSolo

    ChuckSolo Screenwriter

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    Wow, ain't it amazing.[​IMG]
     
  14. MichaelOD

    MichaelOD Stunt Coordinator

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    Arrgh, Sony. They have a penchant for coming up with their own proprietary formats for everything [regardless of their technical superiority in some cases] - that end up going the way of the dodo.

    I think Blu - Ray is fantastic technology - but I'll go on the record to say that HD-DVD becomes the defacto High Definition standard. Sony's got all the hardware makers in their corner; while Toshiba/NEC does not. However, Mr/Mrs. Sixpack don't know the difference between a Denon 5910 and a Nova DV-P5133 door crasher special. It'll come down to titles - and w/ all that massive studio title support on HD-DVD right out of the gates, I think Sony has an uphill battle. Even though they own the rights to Spiderman!

    To answer the posters question - cnet.com has information on the first HD-DVD player; which is supposed to cost under 1000. Current Blu-Ray players sold in Japan are going for over 2000.
     
  15. MichaelOD

    MichaelOD Stunt Coordinator

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    Arrgh, Sony. They have a penchant for coming up with their own proprietary formats for everything [regardless of their technical superiority in some cases] - that end up going the way of the dodo.

    I think Blu - Ray is fantastic technology - but I'll go on the record to say that HD-DVD becomes the defacto High Definition standard. Sony's got all the hardware makers in their corner; while Toshiba/NEC does not. However, Mr/Mrs. Sixpack don't know the difference between a Denon 5910 and a Nova DV-P5133 door crasher special. It'll come down to titles - and w/ all that massive studio title support on HD-DVD right out of the gates, I think Sony has an uphill battle. Even though they own the rights to Spiderman!

    To answer the posters question - cnet.com has information on the first HD-DVD player; which is supposed to cost under 1000. Current Blu-Ray players sold in Japan are going for over 2000.
     
  16. MichaelOD

    MichaelOD Stunt Coordinator

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    Arrgh, Sony. They have a penchant for coming up with their own proprietary formats for everything [regardless of their technical superiority in some cases] - that end up going the way of the dodo.

    I think Blu - Ray is fantastic technology - but I'll go on the record to say that HD-DVD becomes the defacto High Definition standard. Sony's got all the hardware makers in their corner; while Toshiba/NEC does not. However, Mr/Mrs. Sixpack don't know the difference between a Denon 5910 and a Nova DV-P5133 door crasher special. It'll come down to titles - and w/ all that massive studio title support on HD-DVD right out of the gates, I think Sony has an uphill battle. Even though they own the rights to Spiderman!

    To answer the poster's question - cnet.com has information on the first HD-DVD player; which is supposed to cost under 1000. Current Blu-Ray players sold in Japan are going for over 2000.
     
  17. MichaelOD

    MichaelOD Stunt Coordinator

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    My apologies on the triple post.

    My connection slowed up and I clicked the submit button multiple times.

    Again - my apologies!:b
     
  18. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    Guys!

    We don't know yet what the restrictions will be for HDCP. If the studios have their way, a lot of the content will be HDCP protected, and if it is, you won't be seeing analog outputs at all, and no legal devices will be able to pass decrypted digital, and certainly not analog in HD.

    So, that means without HDCP devices, then, well, that sucks big time.

    I'm doubting that this will be the case, because it means everyone would need to get new equipment, which bodes terribly for the sucess of the format. And if it is this restricted, then the little bit I took of economics tells me that there will be significant demand for gray-market workarounds for users with high-end, but old displays(like myself), and there there is demand, someone will fill it.
     
  19. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    I hope you're right Chris.

    From the Blu Ray thread over in the software forum I got the impression that component outs would probably be included but that they would top out at 480p--only the hdcp connection would do anything higher. Apparently there's some belief that the 480p from these machines would still be noticeably better than what we get from current dvd.

    I fear that the marketing for these machines will somehow hide the fact that owners of expensive HD displays that happen to lack hdcp inputs will not get true HD resolution.

    One can open any CC or BB ad and see claims that the S-video connection on a $200 27" analog set is "perfect for connection to digital sources like dvd." Already there is a perception on the part of many people that any set with component inputs is capable of displaying 480p.

    It won't be hard for the flacks to hide the fact that the HD-DVD or BluRay players with HD scanrates only over digital connections offer minimal if any benefit to those of us with good HD displays that don't have digital inputs.
     

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