Here's the latest on the Outlaw 950 (4/9) (1 Viewer)

[Doug_B]

I think the Outlaws did a major mistake in their original design by not including a $5 serial port circuitry and a little routine that would perform software updates. They could have been already shipping units (therefore making money and saving customers that otherwise would drop out) for quite awhile with some missing features and a software upgrade promise.

I don't know what the cost of providing an interface and upgradable SW would have been for the Outlaws, but to view such a capability not only from the perspective of adding features but also from a customer support / bug fixing perspective is well taken. Besides what may have already been a couple of months of missed revenues (and some potential customers who walked away), the current situation must be costing Outlaw more than a few cents. It would be interesting to know if upgradability would have resulted in an earlier release date and a much less troublesome situation regarding the latest problem. The Anthem unit has gone through 2 software upgrades, and if memory serves, these have been mostly bug fixes. It's fairly predictable that bugs will show up early after release, even with rigorous testing, so I wonder if a vendor would typically make out with a SW upgradable unit even if they didn't charge extra for it (or no more than a small increase in price).

Doug

 

[Will]

I agree. Right now I guess the only way a customer can upgrade the 950 firmware at home would be if Outlaw sent a new eeprom or something and the customer cracked open the 950, and replaced the eeprom inside. On the Outlaw forum that's what some people asked Outlaw to do. But Outlaw wouldn't go for the bait. And it's probably good they didn't. Although customers HERE might be willing to put in an eeprom, not everyone is, and of those who are willing, what if a customer fried his 950 by accidentally doing something terribly wrong inside the 950?

 

[Will]

This is a tough nut to crack. Maybe tripling the beta testers would have revealed this problem

With so many new 950's in people's homes, it's like there are more beta testers now. The Outlaws are now working on two problems these "new" beta testers found. The 950 is complex. There may be more problems to discover. I hope everybody who has the 950 will test and test it again in their home, and find anything else that might be wrong with it. And tell the Outlaws about any new problems so the new problems can be addressed. If undiscovered problems are discovered soon, they may be fixed before large quantities of the 950 ships out.
To everybody who already has their 950, try to test it thoroughly now in order to find any undiscovered problems now, so these problems can be fixed before the 950 ships again.

 

[Jack Kelsey]

what if a customer fried his 950 by accidentally

And what if they left the plug in and they fried their pancreas? With liability legislation where it is, there is just too much risk in encouraging - or in fact giving ANY reason - for people to get inside units where some real damage to themselves could occur.

 

[Brandon B]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Fried pancreas.

 

[John Morris]

Folks: Here is the latest update from Outlaw as told to me today.

- The deadline for anyone getting an order confirmation email from Outlaw has been suspended till the units start to ship again. If you do not confirm your order by the deadline stated in your email, you will NOT lose your place in line nor have to go back to the end of the pack. This will allow folks to know that a fix has been found and made prior to confirming their order. Of course, no one's CC will be charged until their unit is on the dock ready to ship.

- NO, the 950 will NOT have to undergo re-certification by Dolby or DTS since those areas of hardware and software which require certification will not be modified. Hopefully, this means that once the problem is identified, the fix should be quick with shipping to quickly follow.

 

[RajeeK]

you sure show a lot of interest in this thread, for having given up on Outlaw. Why don't you go spread some good cheer in the Pioneer threads.

I hardly think 1 post constitutes a "lot of interest." I show lots of interest in threads about numerous topics all over HTF. I would love to take your poor excuse for bait to get a rise out of me, but I'll pass. Thanks though.

 

[John Morris]

While we wait...
One good thing continues to come out while Outlaw tries to solve the drop out problems... multiple good reviews on the 950s sonic performance! That is also belied by the fact that not one of the folks having the dropouts has returned their unit to Outlaw. Once they figure out what is wrong and fix it, it looks like the 950 is gonna be a real winner...

 

[Bhagi Katbamna]

I always have to look at the Outlaw 950 threads, it is like looking at a car accident: you cringe but cannot stop yourself from looking.

 

[MatthewJ S]

In for a penny, in for a pound ...

what's another short wait, just to make sure they get it right ?

I already have a good system I can wait till they work out all the problems from the first couple of production runs.

Besides the longer it takes the more product alternatives there will be on the market...

Just keep checking every week or so to see when everybody that has one is satisfied that all the problems have been adressed and then see what's out on the market to compare it to then , see if there is still a waiting list after everybody who already has one gets their upgrade, and find out from enough independant users what they think of it , then if it fits the bill , order!

 

[Will]

John Morris,
I'm pleased the Outlaws told you they won't have to recertify the 950 with Dolby Labs and DTS even though they don't know the cause of the drop-out problem yet. I'm also glad the Outlaws said customers won't lose their place in line even if they don't give their credit card numbers to them in accordance with their last email on the topic. Hopefully they are also sending an official email to the customers who might be directly involved.
The last "Latest News From the Outlaws" email that I received was February 28, 2002 (The March Edition). Any idea when the April Edition of the "Latest News From the Outlaws" will hit the streets?

 

[John Morris]

The last "Latest News From the Outlaws" email that I received was February 28, 2002 (The March Edition). Any idea when the April Edition of the "Latest News From the Outlaws" will hit the streets?

Will: That was the latest monthly edition that I received also. However, those of us early folks, who have received our confirming emails, also received the email since then which I've posted in this forum and several others for your info. Additionally, when I received the most recent answers, they told me that we would be shortly be getting another email officially letting us know what I was told as well as some additional info. When I get that email, I'll post that as well for those folks not yet in the confirmed delivery que.

As for the usual monthly newsletter, I'd guess that the Outlaws are all busy just trying to get the 950 out to those who want them NOW, as quickly as possible.

Oh yeah, BTW, during my talk with the Outlaws today, they think that they know what the problem might be... but not how, or why, or when it is happening. Since I am not an engineer, I can't explain it very well, but that is how they know that no certifiable DD or DTS components are involved.

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

"....it is like looking at a car accident: you cringe but cannot stop yourself from looking."
ROFLMAO
I've stayed completely out of these threads, but I've read every single post. I commend the beta testers with their thorougness, I commend Outlaw on their consistent, up to date information...and I commend all of you waiting for your patience.
After reading the comments of the beta testers, I'm between a rock and a hard place. I'm close to ordering the Outlaw 950 and forgoing on the Denon 5800 upgrade. The price is the same, ya know
Jeremy

 

[Will]

I'm close to ordering the Outlaw 950 and forgoing on the Denon 5800 upgrade. The price is the same, ya know

Yup. And the delays for both have been pretty similar too.

 

[Frank_S]

I was put down in another Outlaw thread for saying that I would not want to buy a first generation product from a company that is basically new to the audio business, not to mention the fact that it is built overseas to cut costs.
It is nice to see that a company is trying to put out a product to beat the competion's price but as far as I can see, they have been constantly delaying the expected release due to various unforeseen issues. Stick up for Outlaw all you want but if you want to compete with the rest of the audio manufacturers, it might be a good idea to keep your mouth shut until the product has been Fully tested before shipping them, 4 beta testers is not enough, IMO. Maybe that was just another way of cutting costs.

 

[Evan S]

What I think is amazing about this whole issue is this. Do I think the Outlaw will kick ass at it's price point and sound great doing it when it's released? Yep, I sure do. But with all the delays, all the frustrations, all the delayed purchases associated with the problems Outlaw is having with this unit, I cannot believe the amount of resolve that still remains with all the Outlaw backers. I mean, when do you just give in? Just as an objective observer, I wouldn't be too excited about getting a unit in the first run that has had numerous problem after problem...no matter how good it sounds at it's price point. I'm not saying other companies do not have this problem either. It's like those who say they will never buy a new car in the first year of production...from any manufactuer. Too many things can go wrong. But the Outlaw defenders continue to support the company and even ask for Outlaw to ship openly defective products to their homes. I think the psychology of this is absolutely amazing. Outlaw as a company should be extremely proud of the resiliency of their constituency and fervor over the 950. They seem to be getting way more than the "benefit of the doubt" regarding these issues and it's good to see they are going out of their way to reward their supporters...what with free cables and backing off the credit card deposits for first shipments.

This is all well and good, but sooner or later there has to come a breaking point where people just throw up their hands and pull all their hair out, isn't there? Curious is all.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Evan- I think, if it's a good product, it's a good product, no matter how long it takes them to get it right. And I still applaud them for maybe being too honest with what is going on. Not like other companies haven't had problems with their products, you know...
(I still cringe at thinking about my experience at the beginning with my over 3 year old Sony TA-E9000ES. Took them 2 software upgrades, and a retrofit to the remote, to get it right. Luckily, I could do the the software upgrades at home. And that was a Sony ES unit!)

I was put down in another Outlaw thread for saying that I would not want to buy a first generation product from a company that is basically new to the audio business, not to mention the fact that it is built overseas to cut costs.

Hmmm. Most Japanese products aren't made in Japan anymore. And, remember the Marantz x200 series and the noise floor problem? The audio dropouts on the Onkyo receivers? Etc, etc, etc.
Just a fact, that pre/pros & receivers are becoming more like PCs every day, with all of the associated software and hardware problems...

 

[Bob_L]

4 beta testers is not enough, IMO. Maybe that was just another way of cutting costs.

I think you have something there. Merc and RAF should tell us about those enormous fees they received for serving as beta testers. [I'm cracking myself up here...]

 

[John Morris]

Evan: I understand what you are saying, and to an extent, even agree with some of your frustrations, yet, IMO, the answer to WHY folks are willing to wait for the 950 is simple.
Cost + Sonic Performance = No Real Other Choice
COST - This DD-EX preamp only costs $900. That's what, $700 less than the Rotel, which is the next least expensive 7.1 preamp. Of course, if you add the cost for a tuner to the Rotel, then the Outlaw is only about half the cost of the Rotel option. Many folks either simply can not, or will not, spend $2K on a preamp/processor. If they could/would, they'd probably already have a B&K Reference 30 a while back. Folks have saved/budgeted the $900 they need to move up to a 7.1 preamp/processor. Spending more means they have to skimp somewhere else, or even worse, go into debt.
Sonic Performance - By releasing us beta testers to talk about our experiences, Outlaw unleashed our un-opposed opinions into the vast desperate Outlaw 950 information dearth. Fortunately for Outlaw, we all uniformly loved what we heard. Fortunately for us beta testers, we weren't lying ... the 950 kicks sonic ass. Now, just as the latest unexpected problem hits, more reviews of the sonic purity of the 950 are also reported from those very folks having the dropout problems. Even more amazing, none of the owners of the faulty units wants to return them. Now, folks KNOW that the 950 sound great and they want it even MORE than before!
No Other Real Choice - So, even if I was absolutely past the final straw, past the last thread of hope, sickenly fed up with all the delays... what are my other $900 choices? I could spend my $900 and buy a receiver like the Denon 3802. But, I know that the 3802 is a receiver, not a preamp. Personally, I also know how much better the 950 sounds versus the 3802. So, at this point I simply dig in my heels and say: I WANT a seperate, I WANT a preamp/processor, I WANT an Outlaw 950. I want it NOW!
So until another preamp/processor comes along that can displace the 950 according to this formula:
Cost + Sonic Performance = No Real Other Choice,
me and many others are willing to wait as long as it takes... IMO.
Does that make sense?

 

[Will]

This DD-EX preamp only costs $900. That's what, $700 less than the Rotel, which is the next least expensive 7.1 preamp.

Some dealers have reportedly sold the Rotel pre/pro for $1300 (there have been reports of it being sold for as low as $1250). Chances are it is being sold for more now than it will in a few months when all the hoopla dies down for the Rotel. Currently it's a hot commodity since afterall it is the only production DPL II pre/pro available today, for the price. But the Outlaw will be cheaper. That is, whenever it comes out.