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Here's the latest on the Outlaw 950 (4/9) (1 Viewer)

Jody C Robins

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jun 17, 1999
Messages
164
I am one of the folks waiting on the 950, and I, for one, am glad that they caught the problem now and don't really mind the delay. I've waited this long, so another week to get this fixed is a non-issue for me. I am content to use my SherwoodNewcastle R-626 receiver as the pre/pro for my new Sherbourn 5/1500A amp in the meantime. It seems to me that all of the alternatives to the 950 are either inferior (according to most reviews) or much more expensive (and yes, I consider $500 more "much"). Yes, it is frustrating to be waiting on a new toy, but if they didn't tell us anything (like they apparently will in the future) then we wouldn't know there was anything to wait on. As long as they get these problems fixed, and the 950 sounds as good as reported, then I will be happy.
 

Doug_B

Screenwriter
Joined
Feb 11, 2001
Messages
1,081
- They have confirmed that audio drop outs do occur on the new units, but strangely not on the beta units. Unfortunately, these drop outs occur randomly and their occurance is neither repeatable nor predictable. They can occur on any type DD disc and may be related to some software and hardware value tweaking done to make the mode auto-lock quicker? But maybe not.
I would hope that this problem is not due to some post-beta tweaks that were done. This would not bode well for Outlaw's testing process.

As for the time to fix and restart shipments, I would not count on a quick time frame. A non-repeatable, non-predictable problem does not lend itself to quick isolation, though we can hope. Even if root cause is detected quickly and then fixed quickly, there still may be a non-negligible wait period.

Doug
 
J

John Morris

I would hope that this problem is not due to some post-beta tweaks that were done. This would not bode well for Outlaw's testing process.
Doug: Yeah me too! This is a tough nut to crack. Maybe tripling the beta testers would have revealed this problem. Of the four of us, I think that three of us used the same DVD player, the RP-91. Or, maybe, it is a problem that was introduced by tweaking the final units. Beta units used v2.0 hardware and software and the shipped units used v2.4. Who knows? I guess we'll find out soon, I hope.
 

Matthew Anderson

Second Unit
Joined
Sep 24, 2000
Messages
281
Location
Garland,Tx.
Real Name
Matthew Anderson
Thanks John for the latest update and info and thanks Gregg for your input on your new unit. I know this is going to be a great product and Outlaw is doing the right thing by waiting until they find and correct the problem. The updates from them and others are at least helpful.
 

Bob_L

Supporting Actor
Joined
May 19, 2001
Messages
895
Real Name
Bob Lindstrom
My two cents.
I do think that The Outlaws' beta testing was a little lightweight. Four beta testers through one iteration of the software really isn't much beta testing. They might have used two groups of five and shipped to the second group after the tweaks were implemented from the first round of testing (as well as shipping updated units to the first five.)
But that's 20/20 hindsight.
I do know that before releasing a PC-based game, we go through dozens upon dozens of hardware configurations. Obviously, PC system differences go much closer "to the metal" than a pre/pro; but, as we've unfortunately seen, those differences can still have a significant impact on performance.
Anyway ... I still wish I was playing with a defective unit and helping to isolate problems, rather than sitting here with a non-functional home theater (with a new amp, new speakers, and a new SV subwoofer. All silent. Sigh.) At least bug-hunting is fun. Listening to the sound of my hair falling out is not.
:)
PS -- Although the latest update will give the "LB/Lg/JT Show" plenty of new material to perform, I very much appreciate The Outlaws issuing such a quick and thorough update.
PPS -- In the meantime, to cheer myself up, I finished my income taxes today. :angry:
 

Sean D

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Sep 3, 2001
Messages
181
I'm kind of with Bob_L on this one. I think maybe Outlaw should release a few more units(mine included :))just for troubleshooting purposes. Maybe they might be able to get a bit more commonality with the problems which might lead to a bit more insight into the problems. In a sense a troubleshooting beta test.
 
J

John Morris

Bob L: I know what you mean. The last MS beta I worked on included at least 300 of us if you counted both the technical and public beta testers. It wasn't unusual to have many RC versions of a program before it finally went gold. Even then, there are always updates and bug fixes that hit after the program is released for sale. As HT hardware and software becomes more complicated, I think units being released with bugs will also become more prevalent.
As for beta testing a preamp, I don't know of many other companies that even have a public beta, or any formal beta testing at all.
Boy, I sure wish this didn't happen. Somehow, I feel like there must have something that I should have tested but missed. Unfortunately, mine doesn't drop out, so I can't even help to find the problem... :frowning:
 

Brandon_H

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Aug 25, 2001
Messages
234
I've been content to remain on the sidelines of the Outlaw debate, because it seemed pointless. But now, I have to ask the question . . . why is anyone having this debate at all?

Yes, I have ordered a 950. Yes, I am frustrated by the delays. But to me, the answer to the problem is simple. If I want to wait, I can wait. If I don't want to wait, I can buy something else.

Outlaw has a window of opportunity to complete the sale. That window will close when another product is released that I believe to be an equal or better alternative. It seems to me that everyone on this board has the same choice. The audio industry isn't exempt from the rules of the free market, after all.

In the meantime, why the venom and vitriol?

I was ecstatic when I found this board, because it offered me an opportunity to learn more about home theater in a knowledgeable, friendly environment. I discovered products of which I otherwise would have remained ignorant.

Because of this board, I have a Parasound HCA-855A amp, a SVS 20-39PCi sub, and a home theater that sounds much better than it did before. I bought these products not solely because of magazine reviews and manufacturers' spec sheets, but also because I was able to read, in this forum, the experiences of other enthusiasts with these same products.

In contrast, I have gotten precious little valuable feedback about the Outlaw 950. Of course, one reason is that very few have had an opportunity to audition the piece. However, that is not the main reason for my frustration.

Any exchange about the 950 has devolved into, frankly, a juvenile taunting match between the product's supporters and detractors. A glance into any of the numerous 950-related threads will reveal long strings of barbs and insults, scarcely disguised by the yellow "smilies." (For the record, I suspect that those cute little icons are used not to lessen the impact of the speakers' words, but to try to protect the perpetrators from any suspensions that might result from those words.)

I care nothing about what anyone thinks of Outlaw's business practices or marketing tactics. I also don't care whether anyone believes the beta testers' reviews to be inobjective, as I can make that judgment myself. I only care about the features and the performance of the machine.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I believe there are many other forum members who probably feel similarly.

For that reason, I humbly request that such topics and debates, whether intelligent and nuanced or coarse and shrill, be taken to new threads solely dedicated to them. That way, those of us concerned only with the nitty-gritty details of the 950 and its (hopefully) pending arrival don't have to put up with the grating white noise that permeates these ceaseless, ancillary arguments.

Yes, I could use my "ignore" filter. But I don't believe I should have to. To do so would go against the spirit of this forum. That friendly, communal spirit made it fun to be here when I first discovered this board. The poisoned atmosphere hovering about the 950 has made it much less fun as of late.

Thank you.

Brandon
 

Sean D

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Sep 3, 2001
Messages
181
I think that the original beta testers did a great job btw. I certainly did not mean to take anything away from them at all, my only point was about the troubleshooting beta test. I'd like to thank all of the testers for providing so much info in the past couple months. My hat goes off to you guys. I am also going to wait patiently on Outlaw.
 

Bob_L

Supporting Actor
Joined
May 19, 2001
Messages
895
Real Name
Bob Lindstrom
Thank YOU, Brandon. Well stated and well taken. I have also felt the fun of HTF draining as thread after thread turns into a kvetching carnival.

Bravissimo.

Sean:

I agree. I think the beta testers for the 950 not only performed a service to all future owners of this unit but also provided outstanding information on the performance and sound quality to those considering the unit for their systems. Where those testers' efforts were "betrayed" (for lack of a milder and more accurate word) were in the lack of a second, follow-up round of testing after the initial bugs and issues were addressed. In the software world it would be like going directly from Beta One to Final Release code.

This isn't just an Outlaw issue. We're seeing an industry in transition from analog circuits to fully digital processing. Today's pre/pros are actually dedicated audio computers and, moving forward, will have to be increasingly tested in the way computer systems are tested. Whatever my frustrations over the Outlaw delays, I also think it's very stimulating to be around to participate in the change.
 

John Tompkins

Supporting Actor
Joined
Aug 30, 2000
Messages
658
I've waited this long, so another week to get this fixed is a non-issue for me.
I can tell you as a field service technician that the worst kind of problem to fix is one that doesn't happen on a consistent basis or at least when you want it to. A week is being way to optimistic in my opinion, but who knows. I think this was similar to the issue that came up in Dec for the outlaws and others. It wouldnt surprise me if this time the wait could be a month or more. Not cracking on outlaw just stating the obvious.

Regardless of all that has happened I will say that whenever the 950 comes out, if it is the best pre-pro for the price/ features and I was in the market for a pre-pro that I would still buy it because at the end of the day its all about which product best benifits the consumer.

JohnMorris, I would buy the 950 over the rotel 1066 if they were both out and fixed and I needed a pre. In my opinion the 950 has a little more to offer (me personally) then the very nice rotel 1066, (bass management) to be specific
 

AntonS

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Dec 18, 2001
Messages
164
I think the Outlaws did a major mistake in their original design by not including a $5 serial port circuitry and a little routine that would perform software updates. They could have been already shipping units (therefore making money and saving customers that otherwise would drop out) for quite awhile with some missing features and a software upgrade promise. Now all they can do is to halt the shipping again and go back to the drawing board. Big mistake.
 

Kevin C Brown

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2000
Messages
5,723
This is a tough nut to crack. Maybe tripling the beta testers would have revealed this problem. Of the four of us, I think that three of us used the same DVD player, the RP-91.
Dang, I offered my system for beta testing (with a Pioneer Elite DV-05 DVD player) and they didn't take me up on it. Shame on Outlaw. :)
Merc: How did you find out about 2.0 vs 2.4 hardware/software? Anyway someone at home can tell? (Some special remote key combination or something?)
 

AVspec

Supporting Actor
Joined
Sep 7, 1998
Messages
515
Location
South Eastern PA
Real Name
Mark
It wouldnt surprise me if this time the wait could be a month or more
I don't know... if the beta units do not have the problem then they might be able to track it down relatively easily if they have a beta unit version to compare to.
I also offered my service to beta test but was not selected and I have a HTPC with a SB-Live card for the digital connection that would give the 950 a good test! ;)
I have been looking at other pre/pro's out there but I keep coming back to the features and cost of the 950 and I am going to try and tuff it out!!! (and believe me, I am an impulse buyer ;))
 

Pete Mazz

Supporting Actor
Joined
May 17, 2000
Messages
761
Wonder what a B stock 950 will go for??? :) Me thinks there may be some floating around soon!
Pete
 

Allen F

Grip
Joined
Mar 18, 2002
Messages
15
Rajeek,

you sure show a lot of interest in this thread, for having given up on Outlaw. Why don't you go spread some good cheer in the Pioneer threads.
 

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