Help with a Subwoofer (1 Viewer)

[JohnSmith]

I was weary of cardboard subs too, but you would need to stand on the thing to crush it; even then I will assume it'll stand up to it.

The cardboard itself is highly compressed, try one of them packaging tubes (for posters)- they're tough SOB's- then imagine something several times thicker (1/4 inch) and I also believe the inside has a layer of epoxy for added strength (could be wrong though)

Sonotubes are used to mold concrete for underpasses in the states, and other columns. So if Sonotube can support concrete I don't think you have to worry about it for home use.

Also SVS tubes have a hard plastic outer coating under the cloth, so you dropping a drink on the side won't automatically ruin it (soften the cardboard) I would guess some DIY sonotube subs just have the cloth over the bare cardboard tubes.

I bought the SVS unheard from the states (live in the UK) you have the luxury of being able to return it (or try various models) since return shipping is much lower (plus don't pay import duty, taxes)

If you wish to buy a SVS sub made from MDF, checkout the box subs. But you'll pay more shipping, they cost more, are heavier, and are larger. They are also tuned higher at 25hz (the tubes are available in 16 & 20hz versions) the tubes offer lower tuned capability, plus the least amount of floorspace used (16.5" diameter)

 

[Leigh_M]

Lots of input! I know you have eliminated the Boston, but let me echo Drew's comment on sub position. I own two PV600's. When I purchased the second one, I was not happy with the sound in the new room. After calibrating and trying several positions, I have it tuned in and it sounds great! Not boomy at all!

From this site, you will find most people recommend SVS or HSU. Based on this feedback, I'm curious enough to try one. I will be buying an SVS, HSU, or Outlaw shortly. At that point, I'll be able to do a direct comparison to my Boston.

 

[Leigh_M]

Lots of input! I know you have eliminated the Boston, but let me echo Drew's comment on sub position. I own two PV600's. When I purchased the second one, I was not happy with the sound in the new room. After calibrating and trying several positions, I have it tuned in and it sounds great! Not boomy at all!

From this site, you will find most people recommend SVS or HSU. Based on this feedback, I'm curious enough to try one. I will be buying an SVS, HSU, or Outlaw shortly. At that point, I'll be able to do a direct comparison to my Boston.

 

[steve nn]

I have heard it recommended to give the PC+/CS+ a bear hug to remove the top grill. The one time I tried this I walked away saying how could this be so? Those cylinders are as sturdy as can be. A guy could lay one down and stand on it.> (Not recommended) I have stacked, custom racked and layed down my three 25-31CS+'s with absolutely no problem. Maybe not so good for the ports or insulation but not a issue as far as the integrity of the cylinder is concerned.

Upright space permitting the cylinder sub looks less intrusive than a larger box style imo. One cylinder actually blends into the room much better than what most non-experienced cylinder users would think. My three 25-31CS+'s take up less of a foot-print than a box style big block AV-15 that I had built once plus the added benefit of far superior performance.

Honestly I like the look of all SVS style subs though and wish I could have one of each. The cylinder (line) strength integrity is definitely there though just as it is with their box style subs.

 

[steve nn]

I have heard it recommended to give the PC+/CS+ a bear hug to remove the top grill. The one time I tried this I walked away saying how could this be so? Those cylinders are as sturdy as can be. A guy could lay one down and stand on it.> (Not recommended) I have stacked, custom racked and layed down my three 25-31CS+'s with absolutely no problem. Maybe not so good for the ports or insulation but not a issue as far as the integrity of the cylinder is concerned.

Upright space permitting the cylinder sub looks less intrusive than a larger box style imo. One cylinder actually blends into the room much better than what most non-experienced cylinder users would think. My three 25-31CS+'s take up less of a foot-print than a box style big block AV-15 that I had built once plus the added benefit of far superior performance.

Honestly I like the look of all SVS style subs though and wish I could have one of each. The cylinder (line) strength integrity is definitely there though just as it is with their box style subs.

 

[SVS-Ron]

JimMIT,

John Johnson is a bit off on that point, uncharacteristically. As noted by others our cylinders are not made of "cardboard". I understand why it can be confused given a wood fiber based origin, but saying this would be like saying "MDF" is just "sawdust and glue".

How could sawdust hold up in use as a speaker enclosure?

The fact is "cardboard" is very low density (lots of air mixed in) typically pretty thin, and of variable quality. Our highly refined cylinder tubing is instead nearly .25" thick, very VERY dense spiral wrapped material formed under extreme pressures, with high tolerances, using CNC tooling and precisely machine cut. Every tube is outer wrapped with a slick black polymer to seal out moisture that also serves up a glass smooth surface to be topped by the costly fabric cover we use. This tubing is purpose built for us (some very early SVS's used a commercial grade of "Sonotube" but we shifted to our own material as soon as we were able to design a replacement), and was the result of lots of experimentation.

Incidentally, both ends of our Plus subs are capped with 1.5" of baltic birch laminant that is CNC'd with both inner and outer diameter surfaces to mate perfectly to our proprietary cylinder tubing. Under high stress testing several years ago we actually burst 1" MDF end caps and had to resort to this costly construction to cope with the stress on our top cylinder subs. The cylinder tubing in question? It was totally un-phased through all this torture our R/D labs heap on every design.

Because of the geometric qualities of a cylinder (can't flex, very good at holding high pressures as exist in our subs) bracing isn't needed and you get a high volume enclosure that's more efficient in using your floor space and far lighter than a simple box enclosure. So (if you have been working out) you can hoist a 20-39PC+ on your shoulder and carry it up a flight of stairs no problem. This is a sub that is easily competitive with, if not superior to, most 15" subwoofers that are strictly two-person carry jobs (not unlike our own heavy box subs). At over 60lbs most wouldn't consider the PC+ subs "light" except in comparison such MDF subs. It's also very much a sonically "inert" material, which is one reason MDF is so much liked. MDF by the way is very fragile stuff in many ways. Drop a sheet on the ground on edge and you will know what I mean. Do the same to one of our cylinders and you'll just pick it up and proceed with assembly. It's tough stuff.

Of course for those that prefer the box form factor or more traditional design there is no shortage of box subwoofers at SVS.

Hope that helps some. While we don't advertise any sonic advantages to the cylinder design, it's really unsurpassed in terms of packaging. Thousands and thousands of ours are in use all over the world, and only one has ever been damaged in shipping or daily use to my knowledge and that was one that was totally submerged in water. Suffice it to say no normal MDF box sub would have survived that either. The sub in question was returned to us, rebuilt with new components and returned without any drama by the way.

Ron

 

[SVS-Ron]

JimMIT,

John Johnson is a bit off on that point, uncharacteristically. As noted by others our cylinders are not made of "cardboard". I understand why it can be confused given a wood fiber based origin, but saying this would be like saying "MDF" is just "sawdust and glue".

How could sawdust hold up in use as a speaker enclosure?

The fact is "cardboard" is very low density (lots of air mixed in) typically pretty thin, and of variable quality. Our highly refined cylinder tubing is instead nearly .25" thick, very VERY dense spiral wrapped material formed under extreme pressures, with high tolerances, using CNC tooling and precisely machine cut. Every tube is outer wrapped with a slick black polymer to seal out moisture that also serves up a glass smooth surface to be topped by the costly fabric cover we use. This tubing is purpose built for us (some very early SVS's used a commercial grade of "Sonotube" but we shifted to our own material as soon as we were able to design a replacement), and was the result of lots of experimentation.

Incidentally, both ends of our Plus subs are capped with 1.5" of baltic birch laminant that is CNC'd with both inner and outer diameter surfaces to mate perfectly to our proprietary cylinder tubing. Under high stress testing several years ago we actually burst 1" MDF end caps and had to resort to this costly construction to cope with the stress on our top cylinder subs. The cylinder tubing in question? It was totally un-phased through all this torture our R/D labs heap on every design.

Because of the geometric qualities of a cylinder (can't flex, very good at holding high pressures as exist in our subs) bracing isn't needed and you get a high volume enclosure that's more efficient in using your floor space and far lighter than a simple box enclosure. So (if you have been working out) you can hoist a 20-39PC+ on your shoulder and carry it up a flight of stairs no problem. This is a sub that is easily competitive with, if not superior to, most 15" subwoofers that are strictly two-person carry jobs (not unlike our own heavy box subs). At over 60lbs most wouldn't consider the PC+ subs "light" except in comparison such MDF subs. It's also very much a sonically "inert" material, which is one reason MDF is so much liked. MDF by the way is very fragile stuff in many ways. Drop a sheet on the ground on edge and you will know what I mean. Do the same to one of our cylinders and you'll just pick it up and proceed with assembly. It's tough stuff.

Of course for those that prefer the box form factor or more traditional design there is no shortage of box subwoofers at SVS.

Hope that helps some. While we don't advertise any sonic advantages to the cylinder design, it's really unsurpassed in terms of packaging. Thousands and thousands of ours are in use all over the world, and only one has ever been damaged in shipping or daily use to my knowledge and that was one that was totally submerged in water. Suffice it to say no normal MDF box sub would have survived that either. The sub in question was returned to us, rebuilt with new components and returned without any drama by the way.

Ron

 

[Robb Roy]

I used to own the Boston Acoustics PV-1000, and upgraded it to a SVS 20-39PC+ (wrote about it at http://www.robbroy.net/HT/SVSReview.cfm).

I'm a huge fan of Boston Acoustics' speakers, but nothing in their sub lineup is in the same league as SVS.

-Robb

 

[Robb Roy]

I used to own the Boston Acoustics PV-1000, and upgraded it to a SVS 20-39PC+ (wrote about it at http://www.robbroy.net/HT/SVSReview.cfm).

I'm a huge fan of Boston Acoustics' speakers, but nothing in their sub lineup is in the same league as SVS.

-Robb

 

[JimMIT]

Thanks again, fellas, for your input. This forum has been invaluable to me in learning about audio and home theater gear.

Your reply, Ron, was most helpful and very educational -- I suspect for not just me. I'm definitely convinced that your cylindrical subs are solidly built. Unfortunately, after seeing a photo and specs of the 22-31PCi this evening, my bride of 37 years has expressed her disapproval of the height, size, shape, etc. So, cylindrical is out. I should have showed her photos earlier on; it would have avoided several posts and saved some time -- sorry about that.

I also showed her photos of other subs as well. Based on looks alone, she preferred the ACI Force (she liked the wood panels on the sides, which, unfortunately, increase the cost by $100 :frowning: ). I did a search on the HTF (what I should have done in the first place) and found a fair amount of good feedback on them.

I've a bit more research and hopefully some auditioning to do before making a final decision. I've ruled out the Wharfedales (not enough information out there), so right now, it's between the following:

1) ACI Force (a couple of excellent reviews/feedback, great sizewise, highest WAF)
2) Hsu VTF-2 Mk2 (alot of excellent reviews/feedback, borders on being too big)
3) Paradigm PS-1000 (a few good reviews, a little on the large size, same brand as my other speakers so it should integrate well)

Thanks again for your help!

 

[JimMIT]

Thanks again, fellas, for your input. This forum has been invaluable to me in learning about audio and home theater gear.

Your reply, Ron, was most helpful and very educational -- I suspect for not just me. I'm definitely convinced that your cylindrical subs are solidly built. Unfortunately, after seeing a photo and specs of the 22-31PCi this evening, my bride of 37 years has expressed her disapproval of the height, size, shape, etc. So, cylindrical is out. I should have showed her photos earlier on; it would have avoided several posts and saved some time -- sorry about that.

I also showed her photos of other subs as well. Based on looks alone, she preferred the ACI Force (she liked the wood panels on the sides, which, unfortunately, increase the cost by $100 :frowning: ). I did a search on the HTF (what I should have done in the first place) and found a fair amount of good feedback on them.

I've a bit more research and hopefully some auditioning to do before making a final decision. I've ruled out the Wharfedales (not enough information out there), so right now, it's between the following:

1) ACI Force (a couple of excellent reviews/feedback, great sizewise, highest WAF)
2) Hsu VTF-2 Mk2 (alot of excellent reviews/feedback, borders on being too big)
3) Paradigm PS-1000 (a few good reviews, a little on the large size, same brand as my other speakers so it should integrate well)

Thanks again for your help!

 

[ChrisBee]

I've been married for 37 years too and I'd have to tear her 16-46 from her dying fingers to get rid of it! Only a twin 16-46 to match the other one would make her really happy now! She's almost convinced! :wink:

Size is completely subjective. Nobody screams for a smaller plasma screen! :b

And what have wooden panels to do with subwoofers? I've always thought wood veneer actually makes things look larger! Particularly in comparison with "quietly understated" black cloth.

But I also know that some things are not within the decision making powers of the enthusiast. One can but offer gentle guidance to one's partner and hope the hints are taken. Once they think they've made the decision it's usually plain sailing. As long as you don't ever let them know the truth. Not EVER!

ChrisBee

 

[ChrisBee]

I've been married for 37 years too and I'd have to tear her 16-46 from her dying fingers to get rid of it! Only a twin 16-46 to match the other one would make her really happy now! She's almost convinced! :wink:

Size is completely subjective. Nobody screams for a smaller plasma screen! :b

And what have wooden panels to do with subwoofers? I've always thought wood veneer actually makes things look larger! Particularly in comparison with "quietly understated" black cloth.

But I also know that some things are not within the decision making powers of the enthusiast. One can but offer gentle guidance to one's partner and hope the hints are taken. Once they think they've made the decision it's usually plain sailing. As long as you don't ever let them know the truth. Not EVER!

ChrisBee

 

[JimMIT]

Thanks, Chris, for your insightful comments on love, marriage and the art of gentle persuasion.

My house is still under construction, so I have a bit more time to make a decision about a subwoofer. Still on my short list are:

1) ACI Force
2) Hsu VTF-2 Mk2
3) Paradigm PS-1000

From all my lurking and reading on this forum, my sense of things is that the plurality, if not the majority, of this forum's members are SVS owners/fans. That is not surprising considering the stellar reputation that SVS has for making fine products and providing excellent customer service. But, for reasons previously stated (too round and/or too big), I'm not going to be able to go with SVS. I hope that doesn't make me the enemy and deserving of the withholding of information.

I'm hoping that there is still some folks out there who have either owned or listened to either the ACI Force or the Paradigm PS-1000 and can give me their honest opinions. Anyone?

BTW, let me say that the feedback on this forum thus far has been very helpful to me. Thanks alot. Later, as I gain experience in the audio arena, I hope to be able to provide some useful help in return.

 

[Tim O...]

JimMIT,

Don't worry about "making enemies" here; I think most are too open-minded for that. Besides, it's your money and your system and your opinion is the only one that really counts.

As far as SVS is concerned, I own one and can't imagine finding better performance at the same price. And I've never seen an SVS fair badly (or lose, for that matter) in a head to head sub shootout within a specific price category. So, I'd highly recommend trying one if you can.

As far as size and appearance, have you checked out the PB1+? It's a downfiring, tuneable box, it's not overly large for a higher-end sub, and it comes in different finishes. Plus, you'll find elsewhere on this forum and others that the finishes on SVS box subs are furniture grade (and some say better). The only negative is that it's going to cost more than some of the other models you're considering. But I'd wager that it will blow them away in terms of performance. From my own experience, after buying and hearing the PB2-ISD in my home theatre, I will never, ever again skimp on a sub purchase; there are indeed several different levels of performance in subs, and once you hear a very good one, one that makes your entire system sound better and brings a whole new listening experience, it's impossible to go back. Then again perhaps that's a good reason for you not to audition a terrific sub now--once you hear it you may not be able to live without that sound.

 

[Robb Roy]

Jim,

No one is going to ostracize you for not buying an SVS. SVS subs have so far gone the route of large, ported enclosures to achieve flat, low distortion bass. I’m sure they recognize that can lead to spousal executive veto, and understand when that happens. If I recall correctly, their customer survey asked about smaller/cheaper subs in their lineup, and I personally would welcome that, so you never know what the future could bring. Of course, that’s neither here nor there for you, as you’re looking a sub sooner rather than later.

As to the three subs in your last post, I’d take the Hsu over the Paradigm. As to the ACI Force, I honestly don’t know enough about it to tell you anything useful.

As I read through my response, the only advice I can give you that is worth beans is to wait until your house is completed before buying a sub. If you bought a sub that just doesn't work in your room, you may be outside of any return periods. Come to think of it, you might find you have room for a larger sub once you're moved into the new house.

-Robb

 

[JimMIT]

Robb Roy - Thanks for your reply. I wasn't really worried about making enemies -- I said that pretty much tongue-in-cheek. But I do know that SVS, as well as a couple of other companies, have some pretty dedicated fans and because I value the input from everyone, I didn't want to turn anyone off. I think it's good to be enthusiastic about your gear! I will be once I get all of mine. Your advice about waiting until the house is completed is well taken. I went ahead and purchased the rest of my speakers because I was sure about what I wanted and didn't want to chance a price increase. The dealer was good enough to hold them for me for a couple of months and the warranty won't begin until I take delivery.

With respect to the speakers remaining on my list, the one I know the least about is the ACI Force. Regarding the other two, I think if I were to take a poll, the Hsu VTF-2 would win hands down over the Paradigm PS-1000. It's still in the running, but doesn't occupy the inside track.