help upgrading my home theater

Discussion in 'AV Receivers' started by nick0814, Sep 5, 2013.

  1. nick0814

    nick0814 Agent

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    I just purchased and installed a new 80" Sharp so my budget for upgrading my sound has been reduced.

    I have a Harman Kardon HK247 7.1 receiver - Atlantic Technology FS-3200 on wall speakers - and a 10" Velodyne sub.

    I'm thinking going to a newer more powerful receiver will wake the on wall speakers up as they are rated up to 140w and I'm only putting 50w to them now.

    My current surrounds are in the ceiling but this is my thoughts. Keep my 3200's add some in wall speakers to give me 7 channels and maybe upgrade my surrounds as well.

    Think the 3200's with more power will satisfy me or should I look at adding some tower speakers for the front as well?

    I also want to upgrade the sub, but do I go with one or two subs and have 7.1 or 7.2 ??


    room is 17x14
     
  2. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    You realize the 247 is rated 50 each channel. Any current AVR "rated" 100wpc now on 2 channels will have less power than you have now.
     
  3. Jason Charlton

    Jason Charlton Ambassador

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    In the rest of your post you suggest options including:
    - Upgrading your receiver
    - Adding new speakers for 7.1
    - Replacing other speakers
    - Replacing fronts with towers
    - Replacing a subwoofer
    - Adding a subwoofer

    Realistically, we need to know more about your budget other than it "has been reduced" in order to make sense of what your priorities should be and which (if any) of the above options are really on the table.

    To add to Sam's point about "power" really not being as big a deal as most people think it is, your speakers are 89dB efficient - that's about average. It doesn't require a lot of power to create high volume - particularly in a 17x14 room.

    In addition, consider:

    - The option of going to 7.1 in the traditional sense is dictated by your room geometry and seating position. In other words, if your seating is right up against the back wall, then adding rear surrounds is a waste. In this case, you're better off considering options to expand the front soundstage using wides or highs (again, if your room geometry supports them). If wides/highs aren't a good option, then stick with 5.1. More speakers is not always better.

    - While there can be benefits to incorporating multiple subwoofers, they may not be exactly what you are thinking. Simply getting two of the same subwoofer may improve the in-room response, but it won't really magically make the subs to go any "lower". A 10" subwoofer is not very large (and size matters in subwoofers) and my first impression is that upgrading your subwoofer may be the cheapest way to get a noticeable improvement in performance (of course that assumes a properly configured and calibrated system, too).

    Again, I come back to the adage that "more" is not always "better". Depending on what your budget is, and what aspects of your current system's performance you are most disappointed with, we might be able to help you figure out what the best solution is.
     
  4. nick0814

    nick0814 Agent

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    I don't think I need to upgrade my left/right/center speakers.. I do agree that I need to replace my sub, doing some more reading I think one larger more powerful sub will fit my needs better than two smaller subs.

    The room is setup with the TV on the long wall and the main listening seating 12-14' away so I see what you mean about not gaining by adding additional surrounds.

    I could easily go with wides/highs in the front - my main focus for the towers up front were more for music than movies/TV

    I've been looking at a few receivers - the couple I have started to zero in on were the Marantz SR6007 and SR7007 - I would like to have 2 zones (surround will not be necessary when both are used) my living room / dining room / kitchen are all pretty open floorplan and I have a TV in my kitchen and two ceiling speakers in there that I like to use while cooking or watching TV at dinner time, currently the ceiling speakers are on the 2 channels not used on my HK and I put the sound on 7 channel stereo when using them. It would be nice to have the ability to add a couple more speakers in there but that is not the main focus right now.

    My budget can vary - preferably $1,000 or less on the receiver, I'm open on the sub 4-500 up to 1,000 - tower speakers I'd only buy if really needed but could go $1,500-2,000 for a pair.
     
  5. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    Seems you already have a grasp that you need a 7.1 AVR to power the 2nd pair of speakers in the kitchen.

    The only "snag" is that when you go "2nd zone", the majority of AVR only do analog inputs to the zone(though many Denon allow digital inputs to the 2nd zone). So, read up on the "AVR of choice" to find out how its 2nd zone works. Connecting a 2nd analog input isn't that big of a deal. Multi-room set ups from Russound(and whoever else you can think of) are based on analog signal feed anyway, which is why digital zoning is behind the times.

    With a "tops of $1000" budget for your sub, first thing I'd do is check out your local Craigslist. Somebody might be selling a Rhythmik, Epik etc that was originally $1000 for
     
  6. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    By the way, here you go for an AVR that does 2nd zone digital...

    http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X3000--command-7-2-Channel-Networking/dp/B00CALM12W/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1378419803&sr=1-2&keywords=denon+avr+x2000

    This AVR does not do digital 2nd zone, but it is 9 channels, so you could still do 5.1 + height or width and still have two channels left over for the 2nd zone.
    http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR929-9-2-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B00CO07C6E/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1378419879&sr=1-1&keywords=Onkyo+NR929
     
  7. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    And this AVR is only 7.1 and has "intelligent amp design".

    Meaning, you can hook it up for 5.1 + height or width and you can connect your 2nd zone. Then, on the fly, listen to standard 5.1 with the zone...or 5.1 with height/width(notice the 11 speaker connects and only 7 channels)

    http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR828-7-2-Channel-Wireless-Receiver/dp/B00CILJB0E/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1378420216&sr=1-1&keywords=onkyo+nr828

    By the way the 929 has intelligent amp design as well.

    And the Denon X4000 has intelligent amp design...

    http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X4000--command-7-2-Channel-Networking/dp/B00CALM17C/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1378420352&sr=1-1&keywords=avr+x4000
     
  8. nick0814

    nick0814 Agent

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    do I need two zones? I'd never want them playing two channels or anything, just only need sound in kitchen when I have both TV's on and at that time I'm not concerned with surround sound
     
  9. schan1269

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    You gave yourself a $1000 budget. The X3000 is $900. I don't see why you wouldn't want it.

    You can go with a less expensive AVR, but a 7 channel AVR with 2nd zone makes the kitchen simple, with nothing else needed.

    The E400 Denon and NR626 Onkyo make your system work as well.

    And with 2nd zone, you can have the kitchen in use without the rest of the system being used.
     
  10. nick0814

    nick0814 Agent

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    I'm starting to get my focus set on a few things see what you think.

    Yamaha RX-A2010 or 2020 I have found a couple a really good prices. But I'm not seeing an advantage to the 2020 over the 2010

    I have a friend that can get me a break thru his work on Klipsch speakers - looking at the SW-115 sub and possibly a pair of RF-82 II


    do you think I'd need both or would one be ok without the other on the speakers?

    If the 140w would really wake up my current speakers and then upgrade the sub I'd be happy with that. But if I could add the tower speakers to a front channel (not sure if they should be main and then my 3020's moved to either high or wide or vice versa??)
     
  11. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    The main issue here is your 3200 are 89db efficient and the RF82 is 98db efficient, so any room correction you use is going to dial the 82 -9db anyway.Net result?No change in your audio performance, volume wise.How is the room setup?
     
  12. nick0814

    nick0814 Agent

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    you are over my head with that..

    right now room is 14x17 with a L shaped sofa going down a 14' wall and across the 17' wall and a chair in the corner beside it. sub in the corner on rear wall. speakers about a foot from the tv hanging on the wall and surrounds in the ceiling.
     
  13. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    Sounds like your main l/r are too close together. They are supposed to be as far apart as your distance from them.
     
  14. nick0814

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    Yamaha makes a tower speaker that is 89db the NS-777 would that work with my system and the Yamaha RX-A2010? I see the speakers are 100w 6ohm and the receiver is 140W 8ohm, I'm sure there is some sort of setting I can change to make this ok?

    at this point I would assume putting the Towers wide and then moving my current left/right's? or vice versa?

    I'm also thinking I'll still want to upgrade my sub? The Klipsch SW-115 seems like a big jump from my current 10" Velodyne
     
  15. schan1269

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    Why aren't you considering Atlantic Tech's tower speakers? Cost?(they aren't cheap...by any stretch)

    The main issue with Klipch vs AT is the tweeter design. Sure the Yamaha "might" be closer in that it isn't a horn. But the difference in audio volume is only 20% of the issue.

    And which 10" Velodyne? They made several. Is it a digital servo? A bottom end?
     
  16. nick0814

    nick0814 Agent

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    price is a lot of it, NS-777 for $319ea

    I'm listening, what should I do? I know I need a new receiver because mine is only 720p and I want 1080p going to my Sharp also 3D. The Yamaha 2010 is 9 channel so it gives me a lot of future flexibility and gaining 90w per channel I'm assuming will make a big difference in my current speakers?

    the Velodyne sub is a VRP-10
     
  17. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    That is a lightweight subwoofer. Almost anything around $200-new is going to be an improvement.

    And you missed my point about the 247 having 50x7. This Yamaha probably musters 80x7. You aren't going to notice a volume difference...cause there won't be one. Every 3db volume increase needs double the power.

    89db(which is what I think these are) at 1 watt.
    92db at 2
    95db at 4
    98db at 8
    101db at 16
    103db at 32
    106db at 64
    109db at 128.

    Now do you understand why your 50wpc is already enough? 103db is deafening(sure distance from speakers makes a difference, so does 5 speakers make up some of the difference)

    "Reference volume" that lossless movies are mastered to is 85db-105db. 20db of headroom. Your 247 already has that much power...and if you listened to a movie that loud, you'd piss your neighbors off.
     
  18. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    For comparison, my large house(I own three houses...my third I bought from my uncle for inheritance reasons and to keep him from doing a rev-mor) is 5000sf. My large room is approximately 40x40(I've never measured it but it is the same size as the garage downstairs that holds a 97 F250 extended cab longbed, Subaru Forester and a 69 AH Sprite...with the door shut)...

    I was demoing the DV49 that I bought from Gene. First HDMI DSD player I've had. I was listening to a few with the M2As in the room(two of them) brushing up against 63 watts. That was deafening.

    The speakers in the room are the DCM TF600 and TF350. I doubt they are as efficient as your At Tech.
     
  19. nick0814

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    so more than likely I have some sort of tuning or setting problem for why I'm not satisfied with what I have now other than my sub?
     
  20. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    Yes.

    Did you use EZSet? (I have no idea how good the 247's variation of EZSet is)

    Is your crossover 80hz? (I think EZSet allows multiple)

    But...I think a more modern AVR(that will solve your upscaling 1080P problem...although I do believe, though am I going to state "fact"? no. The 247 should pass 1080P if the source is 1080P) with "more modern" room EQ should solve the majority of the problem.

    And lastly...more power rarely ever solves a sound problem. (that comes from many years of instructing people on the hell created by bass nulls. More power does not solve a null. And nulls existed long before the subwoofer)
     

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