HD-DVD to use WMV Codec (1 Viewer)

[Brian-W]

I was thinking at least start with a video stream shot from DV. The compression is so minimal, it'd be a more fair comparison than to compressed DVD.

I have uncompressed HD footage (can't say from where) and have done some 'torture' tests, and wrote about it a while ago.

WM9 isn't perfect, and can exhibit the same issues as MPEG-2. What I found is that both codecs have pluses and minuses. I can see banding on WM9 material, but not MPEG-2. But MPEG-2 tends to be a bit noisier than WM9.

Regardless, WM9 = MPEG-2 at approximately half the bit rate (9 Mbps vs. 19.7 Mbps).

 

[Mitch Stevens]

What's taking them so long to release HD-DVD anyway? I'm so sick and tired of watching regular DVDs that look awful, and are plagued with major edge-enhancement. HD-DVDs should have come out years ago, when DVHS came out.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

The problem you just mentioned (ee) has nothing to do with standard-definition or hi-definition DVD. It's a problem with mastering philosophy on the part of the studios.

The studios are capable of delivering stunning unfiltered DVD images with no EE that could have startling clarity even at the 720 x 480 level...and they are equally capable of providing us with heavily filtered HD content that's been processed with lots of DNR artifacting and artificial ringing.

It all just depends.

Hopefully the superior-mastering we see with DVHS is an indication that the studios might "get" how to master better when they're prepping an HD master. But the fact that we see so many problems with standard-def DVD isn't the fault of the 720 x 480 resolution...it's the fault of the studios!

-dave

 

[Mitch Stevens]

I know that EE has nothing to do with the resolution that DVDs have. All I'm saying is that I have yet to see a DVD that has really, and I mean REALLY impressed me. Most, if not all DVDs are extremely filtered from grain, and have so much loss of fine detail. I want HD-DVD to arrive already so I can upgrade my entire DVD collection!

 

[Nils Luehrmann]

David, you forgot to mention that a good majority of complained about EE is coming largely from the display device of the end user.

I can't begin to tell you how many times I've heard from clients complaining about EE only to find that the problem was relatively easily fixed after calibrating their TVs/projectors.

Adding to the confusion over where EE comes from is the fact that some models of monitors, TVs, and projectors even after calibration add some degree of EE.

Too often the finger is pointed at the studios for adding EE to the transfer, when in fact many times the culprit is the individual display devices.

 

[Mitch Stevens]

Well the EE that I was talking about is even visible on my old 14" computer monitor. Now that I have upgraded my computer monitor to a new 19" monitor, I can see EE even more clearly than ever. And of course, my HDTV clearly shows EE as well, and it's properly calibrated with VSM turned completely off.

I think that too often people's eye-sights are just not good enough to see it, and often blame other people's display devices for contributing to this problem, just because they, themselves can not see it.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Good point Nils about calibration. Indeed many displays come "out of the box" with sharpness set too high (along with contrast) introducing more ringing into the picture and emphasizing any rining present in the signal.

Mitch...not to say that EE isn't a reality of much of our DVD software...


Any reason why you think this would be less likely with HD software? Don't be deceived...the studios will feel even *MORE* temptation to filter grain for their HD software...just think of all the consumers complaining about the "grainy" film images on their large-screen HDTVs. The film buff's biggest nightmare with HD software will be convincing the studios to preserve OAR with 2.35:1 and 1.33:1 material and convincing the studios to leave natural film-grain in the image. Now that consumers have been digesting a healthy diet of Pixar titles like Finding Nemo...their expectation for "clean" looking video images is being artificially primed.

So far most of JVCs DVHS titles exhibit quite a bit of filtering (in comparison to what is possible).

Just trying to point out that HD-DVD offers no more protection from bad-mastering practices than what we get now!

 

[Grant H]

I'm sure this is true in some cases, but that argument falls apart on a title-to-title basis when using the same equipment and one DVD exhibits EE and another does not.

I don't doubt my player or maybe even my TV induce a small amount of edge-enhancement, but it's all-but (if not) imperceptible to me on some (maybe many, but not as "many" as it should be)titles. Yet, there are many titles where EE is obvious if not drastically excessive and ugly.

In a J6P world, I don't know how we're going to get the mastering processes to get rid of EE and stop filtering out natural film grain. Though I do have to say one of the most disturbing things to see on an HD display is an excessively grainy image WITH bad EE.

Maybe they could put in the back of the manual under trouble shooting: Problem: Image is grainy. One of the solutions posed: You are watching a DVD of a feature film. Grain is a natural quality of the film image. The fact that you can see this detail is indicative of the high resolution image of HD-DVD.

And maybe for kicks: "Would you rather see scan lines?"

 

[Grant H]

Maybe the best thing we can hope for is that HD-DVD will go after the videophiles and film buffs first, and by the time prices come down for J6P a good quality standard will have all ready been estabished. (and the studios will keep it.)

 

[Richard Paul]

I was wondering if anyone knows the exact date for the next meeting for HD-DVD? It is suppose to be within 60 days after the February meeting and is when they decide on the video and audio codecs.

 

[Dan Brecher]

Richard,

There's a forum conference in Taiwan on the 6th of April. Now whether this is THE committee conference I am unsure, but points 12 and 13 on their topics for discussion for this get together are related to HD DVD.

Dan (UK)

 

[Richard Paul]

Thanks Dan and from the looks of their website it probably is the meeting. The April 6 meeting does refer to "HD DVD update" which means within a week we may know what video and audio codecs will be used for HD-DVD.

I'll be unsurprised and unhappy if HD-DVD uses only Dolby Digital for compressed audio. I heard that the main reason that HD-DVD's audio wasn't approved at the last meeting was because it included DTS. Why else would they have turned down approval for DD, DTS, and MLP as mandatory audio formats?

 

[Dan Brecher]

What I found interesting was point 10 of the minutes from the last meeting didn't actually note submission of Dolby or DTS at all, but rather DD+ and DTS++, the next evolution of both formats. Next to nothing on the next stage of DTS is known, but German magazine 'Audiovision' did have news regarding Dolby+ back in December.

If development is still moving forward at a good pace then it will still be set for a release in summer of this year as was noted in the magazine article. The alleged improvements; 96/24, bit rates equal to full rate DTS, possibility of freely configurable channels (height channel for example) and more. If this is all part of the DD+ spec, then Dolby sure are taking their sweet time to come out and announce it formally, but again the fact it was DD+ noted in the submitted codecs is very interesting to me as it does show such a format is in the works, but whether it's features comprise of what has been rumoured remains to be seen.

Dolby will surely make the spec in some form, and it would make sense for MLP to be chosen as the lossless alternative to sit alongside a lossy companion on HD DVD releases given Dolby licence it on Meridian’s behalf. I’d be keen to say the delay at the last meeting was perhaps down to the fact it was indeed the next evolution of Dolby and DTS put forward, formats that would have required a lot of research and discussion on the forum’s part before agreeing to make a decision. The TCG could well approve DD+ and MLP on Tuesday, but we’ll have to wait and see.

It should be an interesting meeting, and one with some good results given that the forum should finally be making the decisions on two of the most important factors that will help get the ball rolling. I’d like to hope they will have something worthy of show at Cedia later this year. Regardless of when they actually plan to launch HD DVD, members of the media being won over by the fact they have actually seen demos of Blu-Ray in some form isn’t helping the DVD Forum’s situation.

Dan (UK)

 

[Dan Hitchman]

If MPEG-4 (H.264) or WM-HD files show up on HD-DVD having color banding issues (as most of the demos show so far) and are over-compressed compared to what the capabilities of HD-DVD are, then you can color me unimpressed.

The bugs have got to be worked out before a nation wide roll out!

DVD's were too much of a compromise to begin with and so we don't need the same problems all over again!

Dan

 

[Grant H]

Since next-gen DTS was mentioned, I thought I'd throw out this link, (also linked on the Home page)

DTS ANNOUNCES LOSSLESS DIGITAL SOUND FOR CINEMA

There is small mention in the article of its potential for high-definition applications. A bit vague.

 

[Dan Brecher]

Getting back to this, I am still unsure as there were rumblings of June for the next big one. I've never really had much cause to pay much attention to the structure of their meeting dates until recently. I am sure some news will come out of it if not all the news we're waiting for.

Dan (UK)

 

[Brian-W]

Uncompressed PCM is an option on Blu-Ray in exchange for only 70 minutes of 'extras' on the disc (as opposed to 210 minutes w/no PCM). At what frequencies, not sure, wasn't stated.

 

[Dan Brecher]

Thanks, Brian. That's an allowance of 70 minutes of supplements (I'm assuming we're talking standard definition here) for single layer BD-Rom however, is that right?

Dan (UK)

 

[Brian-W]

Good question Dan. I don't recall the Blu-Ray brochure detailing between single vs. double layer. It just said that MPEG-2 video + Dolby Digital audio = 2 1/2 HD movie + 210 minutes of SD supplements.

Option two said 2 1/2 hours HD MPEG-2, Dolby Digital, and optional DTS and optional uncompressed PCM + 70 minutes of SD supplements.

I'm going to assume it's single layer, since a single layer is 27GB, and a two and a half hour MPEG-2 (at 19.7mbps) would equal around 23GB leaving around 4GB free (unless there is overhead needed reducing the 4GB even further).

I'll scan it in and post it for all to see

 

[Brian-W]

Update -

Two developments in the Blu-Ray camp:

1) Blu-Ray Association created. Blu-Ray consortium will be rolled into the Blu-Ray Association, basically creating a Blu-Ray "Forum" (like the DVD Forum) where companies can join and be part of a steering community.

2) Blu-Ray is now evaluating the use of Windows Media 9 and H.264 as alternate encoding methods. Although the word "evaluating" isn't a definite, I'd be surprised if these codecs (primarily WM9) are NOT accepted.

Lastly, the copy protection scheme that HD-DVD is promoting is also being considered for Blu-Ray.

Blu-Ray is in essence trying to offer up all it's advantages PLUS the advantages of HD-DVD making this battle more heated than ever.


This information is in this weeks Video Business magazine