HD-DVD/Blu-Ray Merger Possible? (1 Viewer)

[Stan Rozenfeld]

What remains to be seen is how aggressively will the studios and manufacturers market the high-def players, and how well they will educate the general public about the benefits of high-def dvd. Laserdics, dvd-audio and sacd did not catch on, partly because they were never marketted for the masses. Early indications are that the marketting for high-def dvd will be very aggressive.

The other big factor is how much of an improvement are we going to see on an average high-def TV set. Right now it's all abstract to me. Specs are one thing, and seeing the picture is another. A lot of people base their current evaluation of high def dvd on whether they think the improvement will be significant or not. If it's going to be the same quality as what's coming from cable, then the improvement will be marginal (I have a 61" Samsung DLP), because I see very little difference between my Motorola Cable box and my Denon 2910 DVD player upscaled over the DVI.

It's for this reason that I am going to a home theater show in Ny, just to see a demo of blu-ray and hd-dvd, to get a concrete idea of just what kind of improvement we're talking about.

A personal story to illustrate the point if I may: when I bought the Denon DVD player, I knew that it had dvd-audio and sacd, but I really couldn't care less. I heard that the improvement was significant, but I just couldn't be bothered making more connections and so on. My brother, who also got the same player, insisted that I hook up his for DVD-Audio. We put in a DVD-Audio of Dvorzak's New World symphony, and first played the dolby digital track, and then the mlp track. The difference was like night and day! And I am not talking about just technical perception, but the emotional response to music was just so much greater!

To summarize, my point from this long diatribe, is that, aside from the format war, if the studios/manufacturers market agressively, educate thoroughly, and provide ease of use, the high-def dvd market might not remain niche for long.

 

[WillardK]

But, you'll be SAVING on that new unit because of the dual formats. Don't you get it?

(couldn't resist, Nils)

 

[Nils Luehrmann]

Please don't resit - as it is very true.

Thanks to the dual formats we will be able to buy both players for less than what we would have had to pay for a single player, had there been no format war. For those willing to wait they will save even more and be able to buy a dual format player.

Not all the griping about a format war really makes sense. Unlike the VHS-Betamax war, even if/when one format dies, the software will continue to work on dual format players. In addition, optical drives and discs are far more hardy than tape machines so for those that might have bought a player that eventually will no longer supported it will likely play those discs for many years to come. I still have one of my first DVD players I bought and its nearly eight years old. I think my Betamax player died after about four years - and the tapes were in worse shape.

This really is a win-win-win-win situation.

• Both formats are coming out sooner than originally expected
• We get better specs than either camp originally intended
• We get both formats for less than one
• And the studios are releasing more HD titles than expected in order to try and grab the biggest share of the market

I am sorry, but trying to find why any of those four issues is negative due to the format war is problematic.

Personally I hope HD DVD raises the white flag and Blu-ray becomes the standard, but until then I welcome the competitive environment that has so far resulted in giving the consumers better products at lower prices.

 

[WillardK]

Nils, you're basing this on the broad assumption that competition between the formats is the only factor driving prices down. Further, you neglect the fact that one format might likely become obsolete very quickly and how that will 'benefit' the consumer. But it's that first assumption throwing the biggest wrench into your argument (especially the math). There are other factors at work including perceived demand.

 

[Jeff(R)]

Thanks. I had been thinking of the benefits mentioned above for weeks and thought I was alone.

Jeff

 

[Nils Luehrmann]

Willard,

No broad assumption, but rather knowledge of the full development process of both these formats, and similar economic models from the past. Furthermore, I did not "neglect the fact that one format might likely become obsolete very quickly and how that will 'benefit' the consumer" - I said quite clearly that even if/when one format dies, unlike Betamax, they will be able to continue to use the hardware and software for many years until the next format came around. - Besides, you are ignoring that they will be able to get both players for what it would have cost for one.

And just so you are clear, I never said that competition is the only thing driving prices down, but you do not have to have a masters in economics to see the drastic evidence of how competition between these formats has in fact resulted in all four of those points that benefit consumers.

I think I understand why many have a problem with a format war, as it can appear rather unsettling, but so far this war has been a boom for consumers and I simply do not understand why you are having such a difficult timing recognizing this.

Anything short of an economics lesson and having you research the history of both formats in their early development I'm not sure there is anything I or any one else can add that would help explain why this format war has been such a benefit to consumers. So I suppose we will simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[WillardK]

Not so. Here I disagree with your math. If you acknowledge other price lowering factors at work, you should agree that even a single format player would have lowered in estimated price making your equation less exact. I suppose it takes less than an expert to see that unlike a brand vs. brand competition for the same product, dual formats have plenty of downside complications for consumers (many mentioned in other threads). BTW, I had both Beta and VHS players back in the day. The Beta player remained useful primarily as a recorder and otherwise had a very short life. But so be it, we will agree to disagree.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

the real problem isn't that there are 2 disc standards...it's that there will be players that only play one of those standards.

If all "HD" players played both Blu-ray and HD DVD, there would be no issues of competing formats.

Let's hope more manufacturers step up to the plate and offer dual-version players...

Either that or the studios come to their senses and choose Blu-ray.

-dave

 

[Ted Todorov]

The failure is due to:
1) The format war.
2) Copy protection stupidity: the insistence on having six anlog cables going to your receiver instead of one digital one.
3) Inability to play a winning hand: all they had to do to make SACD mainstream was mandate in the spec that all SACDs be dual layer with a CD layer, and stop manufacturing CDs, replacing them with only SACDs. The result would have been very broad penetration of SACD software and a steady and increasing trend of upgrades to SACD hardware.

Instead they engaged in a format war, in stupid restrictions which made the equipment cumbersome & user hostile and didn't really push SACD as backward compatible (DVD-A never really had a chance).

They are making THE EXACT SAME mistakes with HD:
1) Format war.
2) New cumbersome restrictions: HDMI, etc.
3) Not having a backward compatible DVD layer on the new formats.

I think that the results will be the same as with audio, except that at least there will be computer support for Blu-ray.

Ted

 

[Craig F]

Both camps have announced they have this capability.

 

[Ted Todorov]

No they haven't. I'm not talking about DVDs playing in HD equipment. I talking about Blu-ray/HD DVDs playing in DVD Players -- at least SACD has that capability.

Ted

 

[DaViD Boulet]

HD DVD talked about this but it seemed that it would drastically reduce the HD layer's bit-capacity...basically restricting the HD content to a single layer of the already bit-needy HD DVD format...not to mention that the SD layer would also be restricted to a single layer...a serious compromise in quality to both SD and HD content.

 

[Edwin-S]

Just one more reason that HD DVD should die. I wish these guys would just agree to use the format with the highest storage and bandwidth capacity. The higher the bandwidth and storage capacities the less compromises have to be made in sound and picture quality.

I just hope all of the parties get their heads out of their asses and realize that they have to allow full rez output over component. If they don't allow full rez over component then the technology will be virtually stillborn before it can even get started.

 

[Paul McElligott]

There is always the option of a double-sided approach, a la DualDisc, with HD content on side A and SD on side B.

 

[Craig F]

YES THEY HAVE!!

The HD DVD is limited to a single DVD layer under the HD DVD layer, but they can be dual sided, dual layer since the physical strucure of the discs is the same.

Blu-ray can have a dual layer DVD under the BD layer.

http://news.com.com/JVC+previews+Blu...3-5506834.html

http://news.com.com/Toshiba%2C+Memor...html?tag=st.rn

 

[DaViD Boulet]

JVC says:

 

[Ted Todorov]

I stand corrected.
We will see if the end up using it.

Ted

 

[Vader]

The disadvantage that HD-DVD has, however, is the DVI-only limitation on their specs. AFAIK, Blu-ray has yet to formally announce their position on this, and if they see the writing on the wall and release hi-rez over component, thus tapping the vast majority of current HDTV owners (who HD-DVD is currently pissing off).... We would see the quick and painless death of HD-DVD almost overnight...

 

[Parris]

I think it is almost safe to say that since Blu Ray will be used on the Playstation 3 it will also be able to display HD signals via component. There is no way Sony would market their new console as a Blu Ray HD movie player and instantly cut off 50% of its consumer base because they dont have DVI inputs on their TV's.

I haven't read this entire thread but George Lucas will settle this format war because whichever format he chooses to release Star Wars on will end this debate rather quickly.

 

[Marc Colella]

1. I think you're putting too much stock into the importance of Star Wars. There are other titles that will sway people one way or the other (ie. LOTRs, Disney titles, etc).

2. By the time George Lucas releases Star Wars on a high definition format, the format war will already be over.