HBO's Game of Thrones: Season 3 (2 Viewers)

[Quentin]

I had spoilerized my question whether they would show Robb with his wolf head last week. I guess they did it! I've seen a lot of bloggers call it 'obscene' and 'exploitative' today. But, none of them cried foul on the belly stabbing last week.

 

[Kevin EK]

Quentin, are you saying that you think the show would finish in 5 seasons without completing the story? Or do you think that by cutting a lot of the new characters and material from Books 4 & 5 that there wouldn't be enough story to sustain more than 2 more seasons?

My understanding is that in the books, Martin continues to spiderweb the story, adding a bunch of new faces in Book 4 without resolving what was going on with the existing characters. It sounds like the show's producers are resisting that idea - but if they do so, that would mean they'd have less material from which to base the next two years.

It sounds like Martin is highly motivated to get the 6th Book out within the timeline you're thinking. It won't be out this year, and I don't expect it next year, but I think he'll have it out in 2015. I also think that the producers will have advance galleys of the book from which to build their plots. And if it really is 1500 pages of material, I don't know how they could get that done in a single season. My chart above was my fanciful way of thinking through how they could get through the books in order, with enough time for him to finish Books 6 and 7 before the HBO series runs out of material.

I found a few of Martin's recent comments interesting. He notes that the series has made little changes in his story, and that those little changes will add up to much bigger changes over the course of the series.

 

[Hanson]

 

[Quentin]

The problem isn't just material. Yes, the showrunners should have access to the 1500+ pages of the next book before we do and they could plot on that. But, let's look at your plot/show map:

2014 Season 4 - Storm of Swords (second half), Maybe a little of Feast for Crows and Dance With Dragons by episode 10
2015 Season 5 - Feast for Crows/Dance With Dragons (first halves of each book, intermixed)
2016 Season 6 - Feast for Crows/Dance With Dragons (second halves of each book, intermixed), Maybe a little of Winds of Winter
2017 Season 7 - Winds of Winter (may have to be two seasons if it really is 1500 pages...)
2018 Season 8 - Winds of Winter (rest of the book) or Dream of Spring?
2019 Season 9 - Dream of Spring (can it be done in a single season?)

I actually think there will be a LOT of Feast for Crows in Season 4...leaving the rest for Season 5 with a LOT of Dance with Dragons. Not only that, but I think they NEED the events of the next book in order to include parts of it in Season 5 as well.

My thoughts are that Feast and Dance are a lot of filler and will be greatly streamlined for TV. Otherwise you risk the show grinding to a less than popular pace. If they stick to the books, it could lose viewers and be canceled before they get further. But, if you streamline the books, you need the next book by 2015.

If that turns out to be correct, then they need the next book by 2015 so they can plant parts of it in Season 5 and roll into Season 6. If the next book has some big events in it, it will add some much needed spice to Seasons 5 and 6.

Even at that pace, a Season 6 would complete Winds and we all know GRRM will not have Dream done in time to go any further with the show.

So, yeah...I think your map is overly optimistic. I think 5 -6 seasons is more likely. But, I'm not a huge fan of Feast or Dance. So, that may be part of my pessimism.

 

[Citizen87645]

With the intense drama of Episode 9, it was inevitable that events in the finale would feel a lot like a denoument. That said, I'm looking forward to where things go from here.

 

[RobertR]

Hanson, that image is just foul!

 

[Kevin EK]

Would Hanson's little picture be the image from Season 6 with this dialogue:
"Dany!!!! Meesa thinkin' you got bombad dragons!! Oh no! Meesa on fire!!!"

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

I was surprised to see that they went there (desecration of Robb Stark's body.) There is another post Red Wedding event that I guess we won't see until next season.

It was necessary, I think. It was the way Arya saw for herself the fate of her family, and they really had to drive the knife home to push her over the edge into taking a man's life with her own hands. She's killed through the hands of others with no apparent remorse, but getting her own hands dirty is a different thing entirely. She was always headed in that direction, but I'm glad it was something truly awful that pushed her to it.

Simultaneously happy and kind of sad to see Arya get some small measure of payback.

I agree. As an audience member, it's some vindication after a steady stream of awful news. On the other hand, it's a child becoming a killer.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/09/game-of-thrones-future/

Based on that article, it sounds like their target is seven seasons. So far we've had:Season 1: All of A Game of ThronesSeason 2: All of A Clash of KingsSeason 3: Roughly the first two-thirds of A Storm of SwordsIf they want to maintain their target of seven seasons, then in addition to the final third of A Storm of Swords, I'm guessing Season 4 will start to get material from both A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons. Season 5 would just about finish up A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons. Season 6 would largely be The Winds of Winter and then Season 7 would finish things up with A Dream of Spring. Depending on how fast Martin rights, production might have to pause for a couple years between Season 6 and Season 7.

I liked that at least some of the disparate groups in the saga are meeting one another, with Sam and Gilly meeting Bran and the others.

I really enjoy that too. I also like that the characters are starting to really specialize in different directions. Jon is a full-blooded part of the Night's Watch, Arya is a junior assassin, Sansa is a wife, Bran is a sort of mage, of cours Daenerys is the Mother of Dragons. All of the young characters were so unformed at the beginning of the show, it's nice to see them really start to shape strong identities.

I think Bran is going north with the brother/sister because the vision of the three-eyed raven is pulling him there. I believe they think their visions are the key to stopping the white walkers.

Yes. For better or for worse, their little party is led by the visions of their seers. And the seers are being led to the Three-Eyed Raven, whatever or whoever that might ultimately be.

I do love the structure of these seasons with the climactic action in the 9th episode and the 10th being all about setting up next season.

Me too. In addition to setting up the next season, it gives all of the storylines a chance to exhale. Things are so unsettled in Westeros that they don't need to grab for cheap cliffhangers. Every character knows they could die at any time. So much of our entertainment nowadays is about nonstop climax, it's nice to see a show that understands dramatic structure and the value of dénouement.

I thought Jon's pleading "I have to go home now" was really well done.

And I was really happy that Ygritte went through with shooting him. Not because I wanted to see Jon Snow mortally wounded -- although with regards to how he treated her it was just about the ultimate dick move -- but because I wouldn't have believed anything else from her character as she's been developed so far. If she'd gotten all soft and weepy, I think it wouldn't have giving the character her proper due. The sad thing is that she would have made a great wife for Jon Snow. But he's seen the horrors that lurk beyond the Wall, and those if nothing else made him put his oath before his heart.

 

[Quentin]

Yes, Adam. Even though he's a bastard, he IS a Stark at heart - his duty calls.

 

[Josh Dial]

After last night's episode, it is pretty clear they are going to streamline the Greyjoy story, and we've now named Reek - something that didn't come about for a while in the books.

This was discussed earlier in the thread, but I don't think the Theon/Reek story has been hastened at all, actually. Instead, the viewer (as opposed to the reader) is shown events that were only referenced in memories in book 5 (this is not a spoiler, because we've already seen the events on TV). Pretty much anything that Theon/Reek goes through right up until the events in book 5 can be almost entirely made up, so long as they end up in the proper place. If there is one story line that can actually be dragged out, it's Theon's.

Regarding the pacing of the show versus the books, I don't think we are anywhere near a danger zone. There is plenty of material in books 3,4, and 5, including a number of scenes that occur "off page," but could make for some great TV. For example (books 4 and 5 spoiler):

Spoiler

Jaime's running of the war effort only appears in a handful of chapters, but spans a long period of time, and has a number of important events that are only referenced to. Additionally, Brienne's search for the Stark daughters can easily take a lot of screen time.

Additionally, regarding specifically the schedule of season 4, while I agree some (minor) events of book 4 (and perhaps a smattering of book 5) will occur--mostly so timelines remain constant--there is probably enough material remaining from book 3 to fuel almost the entire season. I can think of a number of major events that have yet to occur that will likely each have a dedicated episode (to the same extent the Red Wedding did, that is).

Lastly, going forward into season 5, assuming I'm correct in that books 4 and 5 will properly take centre stage, the non-reader audience would be best served by having a few episodes dedicated to setting out all of the new players in a similar fashion to how the Starks and Lannisters were set out in season 1. Some of these intros could be pushed to next season (in anticipation of a few key events), but I think the way it's handled in the books will work fine. Specifically (book 4 chapter 2 spoiler):

Spoiler

The introduction of the larger cast of Dornish characters, including Areo Hotah, Arienne Martell, Doran Martell, and the Sand Snakes. This could be done before the duel between Oberyn and The Mountain, but I think the audience would better handle a nice intro at the beginning of season 5.

 

[Kevin EK]

I wonder if there's enough material in books 4 and 5 to fill not one but two seasons, assuming that there isn't much of them in the next season. If so, this buys them more time for Martin to finish Book 6...

 

[Quentin]

All the stuff you mention Josh sounds REALLY boring to me. It is mostly boring in the books, and it would be doubly so on screen. Particularly following the high intensity of the show we've seen thus far. Is there enough material to extend multiple seasons? Yes. Is it enough to make those seasons enthralling and compelling drama? Not in my opinion, no.

And, you use the correct verbiage regarding Theon's 'transformation' into reek: it can be DRAGGED out. People have already complained about the peppering of Theon info we got this season. Will they continue to drag it out?

As for the rest of the Greyjoy storyline - it has absolutely been streamlined (thank God, because it is also a drag in the books). Asha seeing Theon's tool in a box and going to save him is definitely a new thing...or at least a 'jumping ahead' thing.

 

[Josh Dial]

All the stuff you mention Josh sounds REALLY boring to me. It is mostly boring in the books, and it would be doubly so on screen. Particularly following the high intensity of the show we've seen thus far. Is there enough material to extend multiple seasons? Yes. Is it enough to make those seasons enthralling and compelling drama? Not in my opinion, no.

And, you use the correct verbiage regarding Theon's 'transformation' into reek: it can be DRAGGED out. People have already complained about the peppering of Theon info we got this season. Will they continue to drag it out?

As for the rest of the Greyjoy storyline - it has absolutely been streamlined (thank God, because it is also a drag in the books). Asha seeing Theon's tool in a box and going to save him is definitely a new thing...or at least a 'jumping ahead' thing.

Awww I like the Iron Isles stuff I can definitely see why some readers thought it was boring, though. I think the Dornish stuff absolutely has to happen, however. The Martells are far too important from here on out not to get the "Stark treatment."

I still think there are enough major events in the remainder of book 3 (definitely) and books 4 and 5 to last well into the time where book 6 is out.

 

[Sam Favate]

One of the articles I've seen recently expressed concern that the storylines should be wrapped up (and filmed) while the younger cast still looks young.

I hope they do wrap it up in 7 seasons - it seems like a good number. Nine or ten years seems too long, but that's just a feeling pulled out of thin air. I may feel differently when the series is near an end.

 

[Quentin]

One of the articles I've seen recently expressed concern that the storylines should be wrapped up (and filmed) while the younger cast still looks young.

I hope they do wrap it up in 7 seasons - it seems like a good number. Nine or ten years seems too long, but that's just a feeling pulled out of thin air. I may feel differently when the series is near an end.

I guess this could be a concern for Bran and Arya. I actually thought Arya was starting to look much older this season...of course, that could be due to the storyline she is going through.

I'm not sure how old Kit Harrington (Jon) is? I think he'll likely be fine as far as aging goes.

The rest of the characters still alive are all adults, right?

 

[Hanson]

Sophie Turner (Sansa) is going to be as tall as Hodor by the time this is over. She may be the tallest actor in the cast already.

 

[Kevin EK]

My understanding is that the producers are concerned about Bran's voice changing. I agree that both he and Arya will continue to change in their look, given that the actors were both very young when this show started and they're going to be at least 7 years older before it's all done. Sophie Turner's look has stayed pretty constant, although she has gotten taller over time - if anything, the show is having fun with this by constantly having her in scenes now with Tyrion. The other young actor is of course Jack Gleeson, but he's maintained his look pretty well. I suppose people could also point to Stannis' daughter, but that's a very minor character. Rickon is also a very minor character, and I think he's now pretty much written out of the story. The other characters are all adults or are played by adults.

I wonder if the next year will be done without Alfie Allen. I can't see his storyline going anywhere for a while and I frankly don't see him getting rescued anytime soon. And frankly, after he burned those two farm kids and chopped the Ser's head off, I'm not thinking that the character really needs to be rescued. Granted, it was pretty brutal of the father to effectively disown him like that, but it's not like Theon's conduct has brought anything but misery to anyone.

 

[Quentin]

My understanding is that the producers are concerned about Bran's voice changing. I agree that both he and Arya will continue to change in their look, given that the actors were both very young when this show started and they're going to be at least 7 years older before it's all done. Sophie Turner's look has stayed pretty constant, although she has gotten taller over time - if anything, the show is having fun with this by constantly having her in scenes now with Tyrion. The other young actor is of course Jack Gleeson, but he's maintained his look pretty well. I suppose people could also point to Stannis' daughter, but that's a very minor character. Rickon is also a very minor character, and I think he's now pretty much written out of the story. The other characters are all adults or are played by adults.

I wonder if the next year will be done without Alfie Allen. I can't see his storyline going anywhere for a while and I frankly don't see him getting rescued anytime soon. And frankly, after he burned those two farm kids and chopped the Ser's head off, I'm not thinking that the character really needs to be rescued. Granted, it was pretty brutal of the father to effectively disown him like that, but it's not like Theon's conduct has brought anything but misery to anyone.

They've gone to too much trouble to keep Allen employed and introducing Reek to drop him now. I'm afraid we'll be getting lots more of this story.

Frankly, now that they've revealed his new name - I'd like to see an onscreen evolution into a Gollum-like creature. That is how I pictured Reek when I first read the books (before I knew it was Theon...and even after).

 

[Kevin EK]

Oh goodie. We get to spend multiple episodes watching them torture Theon into a low creature, and presumably cut more and more pieces off of him. Something tells me I may not spend a lot of time watching those scenes. I can't imagine what more they're going to accomplish with this. He did horrible things but do we really need to spend eons watching him suffer?

 

[todd s]

Since Martin is so involved with the show and since he said has an ending in mind. I wonder if th show might pass the books story wise? Since they have said the show will only go 7-8 seasons and Martin still has 2 or 3 books left to write. They could finish the story on tv and then finish (and flesh out) the story in books.