HBO's "Carnivale" (SPOILERS!) (1 Viewer)

[Chris]

I'm not sure if this show is moving in any direction or if it contains something.. it has all of the right old testament elements to add up to some really creepy moments coming up; they have laid all the foundation moments from both Babylon & the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah.. some of the biblical illusions are really thick; others are just stated in order to at least clue the fan in.

But for all the old-testament homages, as well as homages provided toward other religious sentiment (there are several Wiccan elements that have come into strange play) I'm unsure of how it's melding it all together.

What this show needs is an epiphany episode; if it does not come soon, then it's going to be lost. If they can produce that one "ah-hah" moment soon; the program will have serious problems.

The only moment they came close seemed like a paradox with the rest of the show; when he saw the words "tarava" on the wall, I thought "what kind of mix is this?"

"tarava" comes from references to Vishnu; and has some meaning of "the end" type effect; but it is a connector, not an end unto itself, and it's prescence is like being in the middle of a sentence, not an end or a beginning unto itself.

The show desperately needs to make a case, and sooner then later, or a lot of people will give up rather then wait.

 

[Michael Reuben]

Any comments on the show?

Just a bottom-line comment: After last night's episode, I deleted Carnivale from my TiVo season pass list. The reasons have been well-stated by others above.

M.

 

[Ivan Lindenfeld]

Michael and others that have stopped recording it or have moved it down the priority list: I totally understand. But I think I'd be really lost watching Alias right now so I may stick it out once more.

On the religious themes angle, If I take Chris' post and apply a multi-religious overlay to the show (which is there to some degree), I think it may be heading towards the conclusion that G-d (the Hebrew one G-d) is real and all other G-ds are false or are all facets of the Hebrew one G-d.

OR, and (I am 50/50 on these two, none has more weight,) we haven't seen the hand of G-d at all and it's Satan that is influencing these events.

But still things are so overwhelmingly Judeo-Christian theologically in the show, it makes me wonder: WTH are these other Wiccan/Hindu/whatever I may have missed influences doing there?

Still, we haven't been given enough info in the actual program to debate these things much further.

Hmmm.

 

[Chris]

But still things are so overwhelmingly Judeo-Christian theologically in the show, it makes me wonder: WTH are these other Wiccan/Hindu/whatever I may have missed influences doing there?

Some other influences are well done; like the use of Tarot Cards/etc. however, some are below the surface, like the use of terms referencing Vishnu in the tunnel.

There are other elements here as well, but I'm not sure if it's by design or just thrown in for good effort; depending on how the next episode goes, we'll know.. I half way expect there to be a stoning at some point, which will seal this as some sort of religious telling.

 

[Patrick Sun]

My lowering of viewing priority comes from staying up late to watch my recording of the show because in the 9 p.m. slot, I'm watching Alias in HD, and then the Practice in HD, so afterwards, I am staying up late to watch Carnivale on my ReplayTV just so I can read other people's thoughts on the episode on Monday morning, but then I watch the episode, so many little things happen, with not much coalescing into something bigger with any payoff, I decided I could just use the time to watch my recording on The Lyon's Den, or just go to sleep.

 

[phil-w]

If it wasn't in High Definition, I probably would be giving up as well. It looks incredible in HD and that is half my enjoyment, so I am going to give it a little more time to evolve.

 

[Qui-Gon John]

I am enjoying the show. Yes there is some truth in the fact that we're not really finding out a whole lot about the true force behind Ben, behind the Preacher and behind Samson and Management. But it has still proved interesting and I will ride it out for all 12 episodes, so see, hopefully, the payoff. I can deal with something that is not all action all the time.

One thing that I wish were explored more is, like in the earlier episode where Ben finally was going to heal the sheriff's mother, but she refused. Later Samson asked Ben what would he have done if she agreed. Now, did he mean it as, in his mind, Ben wouldn't really have been able to heal her. Or did he mean it as in, he knows Ben would have been able to heal her, but what life source would he have used for this healing? And prior, when he was getting ready to heal her, I got the impression that he could look at a subject and choose them to be the source of lifeforce, if he wanted. Because they showed him looking from person to person, as if he were trying to select a target. If he did not choose, then it would be totally random, like the grass/weeds by the girl in an even earlier episode.

 

[Rob Speicher]

I took it as Samson just telling Ben that, had she accepted, the whole jig would be up.

As for Ben looking around the room, I think it was him weighing the possibility that one of those people could be injured, and was it worth it?

 

[Jeremiah]

I like Carnival but it is moving pretty slow right now, I liked last nights episode but I was hoping there would be more.

RobertW, I think you are correct about Scudder and managment, maybe Ben is supposed to bring him back to life or something like that. Maybe Scudder is supposed to be re-incarnated as an Antichrist or something like that. Who knows, but if the pace picks up it could a pretty sweet payoff.

 

[Qui-Gon John]

Rob, so do you mean, the whole jig is up, as that Samson did not think Ben would have been able to heal her?

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

I'm still enjoying the show though I too will readily admit that it's moving at a slow pace.

I have no idea who or what management is at this point though for some reason I doubt that it is Scudder.

 

[Rob Speicher]

John: Yeah. I think that so far only Ben, Management and the Sherrif's mother (and now possibly the blind man) know what Ben is capable of.

Samson's a business man. If he really knew what Ben's gift was, he would have exploited it by now.

 

[Dave Smith]

For some reason this show has really grabbed me. I came to this thread expecting to see raves and I'm kind of surprised that more people don't seem to be as into it as I am.

Sure it's not moving too quickly, but for me there's a slowly-growing feeling of dread that's really interesting. Some great acting and music too.

I think that for my money it's the best (mini)series on TV since Kingpin... hope it doesn't share the same fate.


Dave

 

[Michael Reuben]

Today's New York Times had a short article on the lack of success, both critical and popular, of HBO's current Sunday night originals (Carnivale and K Street). According to the article, the viewership of Carnivale is now half of what it was for the opening episode.

M.

 

[Chris]

I rewatched the most recent episode, and think I spotted something I missed; I am now more bothered by the show's lack of payoff if the direction is what I think it as a matter of religious storytelling. I'm going to have to review some of the earlier eps, but I think I have this figured out now.

I am going to go back and read "The Archaeology
of Ritual and Magic" (Ralph Merrifield) because I'm convinced the words in the tunnel are "Avatar". This would go together with the juxtuposed concept of "Tavatra" which also appears.. the two are seperate, but linked, in the calling of Vishnu, and the prescence of an Avatar; in the paganistic belief, several believed that Hitler was the coming of the 9th avatar of Vishnu.. and here we are, in the pre-hitler days, in which guiding avatars could be seeing the coming.

We are combining multiple backgrounds of many faiths in sort of a soup; and I'm not sure at which point we are reaching, and the more I think about it, the more dissapointing it is.

If we are to believe that these two characters are but avatars (In Hindu usage, any incarnation of the god Vishnu. General usages can refer to the descent of any god into the world in human form, usually to help mankind in a time of crisis. Pat Means, The Mystical Maze. Campus Crusade for Christ, 1976)

However, these are broken avatars, and the existence of a soulless avatar is both terrifying and a bad misuse/misunderstanding of faith. There is something conceptually wrong with this placement. I'm not sure if the story writer understands this, but the sheer prescence of a Hinduistic forebearer within a hell-like state (Babylon) in the prescence of death is setting up something that is not right.. I'm growing increasingly concerned that the script writer is mixing metaphors because they are cool, and not because they actually have any real-world value.. if that's the case, this thing is going to fall into a jumbled mess.

 

[Ivan Lindenfeld]

Chris,

that interpretation is outside of my knowledge but I will look for your further posts on the subject to shed light in this context as I am interested in in it.

 

[Francois Caron]

The show is so slow that last night I missed the first fifteen minutes of TMN's second showing, jumped to other channels from time to time, watched David Letterman's Top 10 list, and still managed to catch enough of the episode to know what was happening i.e. not much of anything.

I guess it was inevitable that HBO would produce a substandard series at some time. We're just not used to them making these kind of mistakes.

 

[Chris]

So.. "Pick your Number"

Episode that basically highlights a lot of what I thought in the last episode, in which we now know for sure everyone who was in the city of Babylon was already dead.. and Scutter killed all of them.

Management got called to the rug as "fake" and the reverend lost his faith.

The show is beautiful to look at, and has some fantastic moments in their where you think you are getting somewhere, but is spending so much time with this horribly slowly rising action that we aren't getting to any understanding of events quick enough to satisfy the majority of the audience. I'll watch it all the way through because I like some of the underlying tones, but if by the end of the year, some of the foreshadowing hasn't turned into events, then it's gone.

 

[BrianShort]

How does Scutter relate to the Carnivale? Ben had the photo of him, but I can't remember if they said there was any relation between them. I wish Ben would open up a bit to Lodz. We got to see a glipse of that dream where he's in the trenches in WW2, and we see that Lodz is in it, but it's not explained beyond that.

Despite the glacial pace of the story, I still am finding myself drawn to the show. I'll definitely be watching the whole season.

Brian

 

[Jefe Noche]

Scutter is Ben's father.

I'm continuing to "hang in there", but the pace of the show is starting to get to me.