Has a theatrical movie ever had Edge enhancement?

Discussion in 'DVD' started by Andrew s wells, May 24, 2004.

  1. Andrew s wells

    Andrew s wells Second Unit

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2001
    Messages:
    449
    Likes Received:
    0
    I hope this is the right discussion zone for this. I really wasn't sure. I have heard about edge enhancement many times, but have done very little research into it, as I have heard once you know, its very distracting. I was, however curious, for those of you who can spot it, has it ever been spotted while a movie is being shown in the theaters, or is this only relegated to home video releases? Just curious. [​IMG]
     
  2. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 1998
    Messages:
    21,769
    Likes Received:
    2
    It's strictly a video phenomenon.

    M.
     
  3. Randy A Salas

    Randy A Salas Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    1


    Isn't it a digital phenomenon? I could have sworn it pops up occasionally on theatrical presentations of films shot with digital-video cameras, such as 28 Days Later and The Lost Skeleton of Cadavera.
     
  4. Holadem

    Holadem Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2000
    Messages:
    8,972
    Likes Received:
    0
    Which would be video.

    --
    H
     
  5. Damin J Toell

    Damin J Toell Producer

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2001
    Messages:
    3,762
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Real Name:
    Damin J. Toell


    And video can be a theatrical format (either in acquisition, projection, or both). Perhaps Michael meant to expand his point to make it clear that theatrical exhibitions can, depending on the format(s), exhibit edge enhancement.

    DJ
     
  6. greg_t

    greg_t Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2001
    Messages:
    1,654
    Likes Received:
    0


    Home video can be digital (dvd, D-VHS) or analog (laserdisc, VHS). LD can also have edge enchancment, so I would say Michael gave the most accurate answer.
     
  7. Scott Kimball

    Scott Kimball Screenwriter

    Joined:
    May 8, 2000
    Messages:
    1,500
    Likes Received:
    0
    If, at any time from shooting to display on your screen or the theater screen, the elements pass through a digital stage, then it is likely that some amount of sharpening (edge enhancement) was done to the image.

    To the proper degree, edge enhancement can have a positive effect on the image and can be a beneficial form of filtering for sources crossing the analog-digital divide, or sources re-sampled to a different sized format. The problem is when the sharpening filter is applied too heavily. Usually, the degree of sharpening which can be beneficial will change from scene to scene - so if those responsible for filtering just "set it and forget it," we get the unfortunate edge enhancement artifacts (halos, ringing, blooming).

    Also, display devices, when designed poorly or set up improperly, will do some sharpening. The sharpness control and Velocity Scan Modulation controls on your display both do edge enhancement on-the-fly. Some displays don't even let you turn these controls all the way off.

    -Scott
     
  8. Matt Pelham

    Matt Pelham Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2002
    Messages:
    1,711
    Likes Received:
    0
    28 Days Later is the only one I can think of. I remember being stunned sitting in the theater and seeing all the massive edge enhancement.
     
  9. Randy A Salas

    Randy A Salas Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    1

    My point was that, yes, you can see edge enhancement in theaters, which is what the original question concerned. Michael's terse response--"it's strictly a video phenomenon"--implied that you couldn't see EE in theaters.
     
  10. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 1998
    Messages:
    21,769
    Likes Received:
    2
    You know, I actually considered a longer answer replete with comments about digital video, digital intermediates, composited digital effects, etc. etc. But after many years at HTF, I've come to believe that sometimes there's a virtue in short answers -- accurate but not dressed up with every subtlety and qualification. If people want further information, they'll ask for it.


    Or, alternatively, it implied that the edge enhancement that is most frequently a subject of discussion here is something that gets applied when a film source is transferred to video for home consumption.

    M.
     
  11. Bjoern Roy

    Bjoern Roy Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 1998
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    0
    Film based movies

    Many recent films have a bit of EE and/or DNR artefacts, because of processing done to the digial intermediate. It appears to be a 'trend' actually. The move to 4k DI will make at least the EE less likely to be used and/or almost unnoticable to the viewer (since you can double the freq range to compensate aperture loss).

    The EE even on 2k DI is usually of such high freq (read: thin), that it is inconsequential for the outcome of a DVD (in case anyone wants to start pointing the finger at DI EE as a relevant source for ringing on DVD). It will be slightly visible on the HD transfer the DVD is derived from, though.

    Yet, the amount of ringing on the HD transfer or the latter DVD is more determined by
    1.) Edge enhancement, through:
    - aperture correction of the film->HD telecine (if the HD transfer isn't derived directly from the DI)
    - enhancements in the HD transfer post processing

    2.) Resampling Artefacts, through:
    - HD->SD downconvertion
    - vertical filtering to minimize flickering (and to lower entropy)
    - horizontal filtering to lower entropy
    - additional filtering and freq quantization in MPEG encoders

    3.) MPEG ringing / mosquito noise

    The most relevant are 2) and 1).

    HD-Video based movies (e.g. Session 9, AOTC, Once Upon a Time in Mexico)

    Movies shot on HD can exhibit quite a bit of EE, due to:
    - the default aperture correction build into the cameras
    - enhancements in the camera; sometimes enabled for HD-Video (e.g. sports), but thankfully disabled in most major HD-film projects like AOTC.

    The ringing on HD sourced material is slightly more distracting as DI ringing, especially if enhancements on the camera are involved.


    SD- / DV-Video based movies (e.g. 28 Days Later)

    Movies shot on DV can exhibit a lot of EE, due to:

    1.) Edge enhancement, through:
    - the default aperture correction build into the cameras (a lot lower freq than on HD!)
    - enhancements in the camera; often enabled
    - enhancements in post processing (to make lowly SD source resolution 'acceptable' on film; bad concept)

    2.) Resampling Artefacts, through:
    - SD->HD downconvertion or SD->film printing
    - vertical filtering to minize flickering in the camera itself

    Most of the severe ringing in 28 Days Later is most likely due to digital enhancements in the camera and post processing.



    Regards
    Bjoern
     
  12. Ed St. Clair

    Ed St. Clair Producer

    Joined:
    May 7, 2001
    Messages:
    3,320
    Likes Received:
    0
    I saw ringing in the theatrical presentation of The Last Samurai.
    When Cruise is walking on the ridge.
     
  13. Haggai

    Haggai Producer

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    3,883
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm pretty sure I saw some EE in Kill Bill Vol. 2., in the black and white opening sequence. Specifically, some of the shots inside the church have a glow/halo sort of thing going on around Uma.
     
  14. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 1998
    Messages:
    21,769
    Likes Received:
    2

    Those are deliberate lighting effects, not EE. DP Robert Richardson is famous for that sort of thing. (You see it a lot in Casino as well.)

    This is a good example of why I phrased my initial answer as I did. Discussions of EE on this forum have routinely addressed the problem of an artifact that has been added to a film during its transition to home video. In a theatrical presentation, there are many effects that may look like EE but really aren't. And, to the extent that genuine EE appears in a film as a by-product of the technical means used to create the film, I would argue that it's part of the look of the original (as is film grain) and should be preserved in the translation to home video.

    M.
     
  15. Patrick McCart

    Patrick McCart Lead Actor

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    7,521
    Likes Received:
    121
    Location:
    Alpharetta, GA, USA
    Real Name:
    Patrick McCart
    Sometimes, "edge enhancement" is really film-based artifacts.

    For example, the "ringing" in The Grapes of Wrath seems to be a side-effect of the dupe used for the restored version. Also, a scene in Sunrise has white "ringing" around the couple due to a composite process being used.
     
  16. Haggai

    Haggai Producer

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    3,883
    Likes Received:
    0

    Ah, ok, thanks, Michael. I don't really know what the hell I'm talking about when it comes to the two subjects in question here (EE and cinematography/lighting effects), so it's good to hear from someone who does. [​IMG]
     
  17. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden Producer
    Reviewer

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2001
    Messages:
    6,170
    Likes Received:
    66
    Location:
    Livonia, MI USA
    Real Name:
    Kenneth McAlinden
    Standing in th Shadows of Motown includes some vintage video clips transferred to film with heavy edge enhancement. I'm sure there are other documentaries that have done this as well.

    Regards,
     
  18. Tim Hoover

    Tim Hoover Screenwriter

    Joined:
    May 27, 2001
    Messages:
    1,425
    Likes Received:
    0


    That's no joke, Matt. Some of the EE was three feet wide when projected on the big screen!
     
  19. Mitch Stevens

    Mitch Stevens Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Messages:
    581
    Likes Received:
    0
    A lot of people (including myself) noticed some EE in the theatrical print of "Charlies Angels 2: Full Throttle." I remember discussing it, back when the movie first came to theaters. There were about 50% of people who said that they did see it, while the other 50% of the people said that they didn't see it, or it was intentional (halos - on Angels). I don't think it was intentional at all though.
     
  20. AndyVX

    AndyVX Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2000
    Messages:
    808
    Likes Received:
    0
    Anyone have any screen captures that show this? Maybe I've seen it in movies but just never cared enough to be bothered by or aware of it.
     

Share This Page