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Great article on all the post format war doomsaying... (1 Viewer)

Patrick Sun

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The last VHS tape I bought was just 4-5 years ago, off Ebay no less. It was "The Double Life of Veronique", which did not have a DVD release at that time, but I wanted to see it again, and that was that. About 2 years later, a region 2 (PAL, no less) DVD version finally showed up, and I bought that version as well because I just like the film and it was finally on DVD. Then the region 1 version finally become a reality via the Criterion Collection, and I also bought that one, why? Just because I could, finally. Plus, it made me less reliant on my region-free playback solution in case it went tango-uniform.

Some films, you take what you can get at the time you want it. I did that with Blade Runner, too, except I have no idea where my VHS copy of it went, but I know where my Criterion LD (CAV), DVD, and BD versions of it are. Hell, I may even pick up a HD DVD version of BR if I can get a good deal on it, just because. :)
 

Professor_Echo

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I agree with you wholeheartedly, Paul, and posted a similar POV on another thread here at HTF about HDM being a niche product. I won't repeat that post here, but suffice to say that we are of like mind on this subject. I share the same doubts about this improvement to an existing format ever being embraced as a genuinely new format would be.

I work as a film historian, writer and teacher and my specialty is films of the 1920's-early 1930's, most of which will never even make it to SD DVD, let alone Blu-Ray. The best I can hope for is if TCM goes HD someday. Even the films from the late 30's to the mid-70's that I am most interested in will probably not emerge on any hard disc format the same way that some of my favorite LPs vanished from any potential CD release.

I realize that I am in the minority on these boards with regards to having little interest in many of the films from the past 20 years, all those which would, at least in theory, maximize the home theater experience in picture and sound, but I also think it gives me a unique vantage point. I feel that I am a film purist in every sense of the word and have been professionally interested and invested in film for over thirty years. So while I want to support the best approximation of a theater experience at home, I can't help but think that an extension of an already existing format, which ultimately Blu-Ray is, will prove to be a tough sell at our current pace of technology.

There were many, many doom and gloom predictions over the idea of downloading music and particularly vocal were the audio "purists" who complained about the inherent lack of quality in the presentation. Yet for all of that, nothing could stem the tide for everyone wanting iPODS, a trend that increases in popularity all the time. So I don't believe the idea of one day being able to download films by the same means as we can music is all that far fetched. True, it may be awhile before it can be done properly, but don't think that quality alone will ever decide the success or failure of any technology. It is easy to stop seeing the forest for the trees, especially in enthusiast forums like HTF.

Speaking as something of an insider/outsider, for me the idea of being able to download virtually any existing film from the history of commercial filmmaking, something that may indeed become possible at some point, excites me more than all the "greatest hits" of films on SD DVD or Blu. The trouble with all hard media is that we will always be at the mercy of a corporate bottom line. I would love to see a much wider spectrum of film history be reflected in DVD releases. I admit that I have been pleasantly surprised by the variety that has come out in SD DVD over the past 11 years, but to expect that same diversity in Blu-Ray seems rather foolish at the moment. Downloading, in theory anyway, will level the playing field a little more as the studios will only have to release the film once and from then on individual technology takes over. The sad part will be compromising quality, but who's to say that will even be an issue a few years from now with the incredible rate that technology keeps surpassing itself?
 

ManW_TheUncool

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I'm not sure about the full list, but some sort of list was posted in one of the bargain threads, and the sale apparently includes 3:10 to Yuma, so that's nice (and a relatively recent release that hadn't experienced any particularly good discounts yet). I'll probably see about getting that and something else though not sure yet. If you haven't already stocked up from previous sales, then there are probably a few others of interest like Ratatouille, Casino Royale, etc.

_Man_
 

Gregory Vaughan

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I tried to say this in my last post, but I still think the "incremental improvement" is exactly why HDM will succeed, not fail. The fact is, unlike LaserDisc, which required a completely different mindset, a blu-ray player is just another DVD player. The only barrier to adoption is price. OK, right now the price difference is big, but I'd be willing to bet that 2 years from now you'll only pay a modest premium for an HD player, and 5 years from now there won't be any noticeable price difference at all. If you look at the economics of manufacturing, once they've absorbed the costs of R&D and setting up the manufacturing lines (which is what is driving the high prices now), there's no real reason why the players should be any more expensive.

I think internet downloads face a much much greater challenge to adoption, because it requires people to rethink how they acquire their movies (not that it won't eventually happen, but I think it will take longer).
 

DaViD Boulet

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Interesting perspective.

When prices fall to commodity levels (a couple of years is my guess) BD players could be the defacto "DVD player" for sale... since it would play whatever 5" disc you had on your shelf (other than HD DVDs). Nothing scary and nothing radical to have to accept for the consumer... just enjoy how much better their 1080p plasma looks with the BD movies.
 

ManW_TheUncool

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Personally, I also don't see why Blu-ray needs to be as mainstream as some think. I agree w/ Crawdaddy that 40-50% penetration should be realistically achievable, if the industry doesn't screw it up. And that kind of penetration might well net them 80-90% of the revenues (and much better profit margins) that the current DVD market brings them anyway -- of course, I'm just doing a rough/ballpark guesstimate there, but the law of diminishing returns (and market/system efficiencies) do apply here as in most everything else.

_Man_
 

Marc Colella

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Yes, a Blu-Ray player is just another DVD player... unfortunately a Blu-Ray disc is not just another DVD. A Blu-Ray movie can only be played in Blu-Ray players - it won't play in the DVD player in the bedroom, kids room, mini-van, computers, etc (and on all those devices owned by friends and family).

People will gain an incremental improvement in picture quality (as long as they have an HDTV), but they'll lose out bigtime on the convenience factor of DVD.
 

bigluigi

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Boy...am I glad I don't live in the apt next to you.:)
Personally, I'm not a HDM cheerleader (big surprise) and I've already told you why....lack of titles that interest me. I only have 5 Blu-ray titles. Now my SD DVD collection numbers 500+ and, consequently, I spend a lot more time watching SD DVD titles. I've owned HDTVs since 2001 and, quite frankly, now take HD PQ for granted. And why not...for the price I paid for my display equipment I expect and demand a quality HD picture. So it was a very pleasant surprise to me when I began watching my SD DVD collection on my new HD-A2 player and the PQ was 'HD' like to me. Now I'm not saying that if I did an A:B test that both pictures would be identical. But what I am saying is that for me, the PQ is thoroughly satisfying. I do know a good picture when I see one.
 

Douglas Monce

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I think this is probably the long term goal. Eventually there will be no DVD only players, there will be media players that will play DVDs, blu-ray, WMV and MOV files from a USB flash drive or memory card, photo CDs, MP3 and so on. Maybe even HD DVDs.

Doug
 

Gregory Vaughan

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True, and that may persuade you to still buy at least some movies as SD-DVDs (especially kid's films). However, most people still rent most the of the movies they watch, so you might as well have a high-def player attached to the high-def TV for your friday night video watching. Eventually there will be more and more of those other players that will handle BD's. I'm certainly not saying HDM will replace SD-DVDs for a long long time, but I do think it will be much more than a niche.

btw, what you say goes triple for digital downloads and their associated DRM, so I still think that's a technology with a lot more hurdles.
 

drobbins

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I agree. Here is the next challenges for Blu-ray – convince me to buy into it. Not just me, but also people like me.

I have been sitting out this whole HDM technology. I have seen HD displays and it does look better than SD. I still have not been convinced to buy into it though. As a matter of fact the only time I ever think about it when I read these HD forums. Blu-ray still has a hard sell with me and I am more of a movie hobbyist than anyone I know, outside of this forum.

Currently I have a Samsung DVD player that up converts to 1080P and my HD70 projector is 720 displaying on a 113 screen. When I watch a SD DVD I am very happy with the picture and sound quality. I don’t look for imperfections or lack of imperfections while the movie is playing - I watch the movie. To fully take advantage of HD I would have to upgrade my receiver and projector on top of buying the Blu-ray player. Then I would over time have to repurchase many of my favorite DVDs but I would not replace the whole collection. What am I going to get for a return on my investment? Then if a new hit movie came out & I bought it on Blu-ray, it will only play in my theater. It won’t play in my living room, kids bedrooms or portable players that we have. Even if it could, I would have to upgrade those TVs to HD also. Outside of top movies like Harry Potter or Matrix, I never pay more than $7.00 for a movie. BB and Wal-Mart have enough in the $5.00 rack to keep me happy.

My current “cable” is through the phone co. and is not planning any HD programming in the foreseeable future. So with kids getting ready for college, car payments and already having the best set-up on the block, why should I invest more in HD? It is a better picture and audio, but is it worth the added expense? I have asked myself that question since before the holidays and I still come up with “no”. VHS to DVD was a much bigger improvement and even then my first DVD player was a PS2 to help cost justify it. I think Blu-ray players and HD equipment will need a drastic price drop and then it will be phased in while the older SD DVD wears out. So first convince me to buy into Blu-ray and HD equipment, then you will need to convince my wife.:D
 

DaViD Boulet

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Exactly.

similarly to the way that PCs don't typically come with CD-ROM drives these days... just DVD drives that play a multitude of disc types.
 

Josh Dial

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Once again I'll state for the record that I am a blu-ray fan, although my SD collection still massively dwarfs my BD collection.

That being said, a film coming out on BD isn't always an auto-purchase for me. By this I mean that sometimes I still buy the SD version over the BD version. Why is this? A few reasons:

1) Price - Is there any reason for the discs to be priced as they are? The whole thing smacks of charging more simply to make the format appear "elite."

2) I'm not rich - Though there are a lot of forum members with substantial income, grad students like myself sadly aren't counted in their numbers. As a result, I have exactly one Blu-ray player, and it's in my HT. If there is a movie that I might be watching on my laptop during office hours, or as background noise in the bedroom as I read, or on one of other five DVD players in my house, then I simply can't go BD.

3) Extras - There are already instances where the BD version "cheats" consumers out of extras, compared to the SD counterpart, and that is simply stupid.


In the end, I think it's important to remember why we, movie and home theatre enthusiasts, got into the hobby to begin with. At least to me, after years of posting on this forum, it seems to be a simple love for movies. At the heart of this love is the desire to view movies "as the director intended." You can insert which ever axoim you wish there.

This is where I have to give the general public some credit, in that they seem to have finally ditched pan & scan/full frame movies for OAR. Sure, there is still the odd release here and there, and I do indeed still overhear people complaining about "those black bars," but they are few and far between.

DVD is the format that finally moved people into the OAR camp, and elevated countless individuals from mere movie-fan to movie enthusiast.

I just don't see what Blu-ray is offering those individuals. They already have OAR, they already have superior audio (superior to their TV speakers), and "rewinding" is a relic of the past. I can for sure envision people buying a blu-ray player for their home, and even purchasing new releases in BD. However, nobody can honestly believe that millions upon millions of people across the globe are simply going to upgrade their ENTIRE collection, which numbers in the hundreds now in even the most modest of collections, purely for "more resolution."

Ben Affleck wanted me to see "Gone Baby Gone" in widescreen, that much is certain. However, did he really intend for me to see every hair in Ed Harris' goatee? Maybe, but you'll have a tough time convincing the average consumer of that fact.

Lastly, I think we are all missing perhaps the most important reason DVD took off: it was the first time EVER, that most movies were available for the average consumer to purchase. To a niche cross-section of society such as ourselves, those four copies of "2001" on our shelves don't seem silly. Nor do the LD copies sitting on a different shelf. Not so with most people, I assume.

DVD brought movies to the masses, so to speak. It brough OAR, which was a tough battle in and of itself. It brought superior picture and sound, removed rewinding, brought the idea of "extras" and "special edition" to the mainstream.

Blu-ray has better picture and audio.

I'm just not convinced that Blu-ray will even reach 40% penetration. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the technology stays niche forever. Though, I hope I am wrong.

cheers!

Josh
 

Bryan^H

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I'm sure your right about this. As you stated, price is a BIG factor. Why pay $30 for a Blu-Ray film when you can get the SD DVD for half that price? I'm not speaking for myself because if given the choice I'd always choose Blu, but the average consumer will never care enough to cough up an extra $15 for the same film.
 

Travis Brashear

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This is where you lost me--where does VHS stand in this equation, which brought thousands upon thousands of movies to the average consumer long before the first DVD was ever pressed???
 

bigluigi

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Until your ready to make that Blu-ray plunge might I suggest checking into small dish satellite services. Dish DVR Network has a damn good sale for new subscribers by offering a "free" Hi Def receiver/recorder and offers a large selection of Hi Def channels that would suit anyone's taste. The cost may even be less than what your paying for cable through the phone company.
 

Don Solosan

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"I'm sure your right about this. As you stated, price is a BIG factor. Why pay $30 for a Blu-Ray film when you can get the SD DVD for half that price?"

Why do you assume that prices won't come down?
 

Josh Dial

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Nobody "owned" movies during the VHS-era, outside of LD collectors, and those rich enough to afford the "priced for rental" VHS. Sure, there were a handful of releases each year, of movies on VHS which were "priced to own," but honestly, I don't see anyong claiming that VHS was anything more than a "rental medium."

In fact, I know more people that taped movies from TV, commercials and all, or otherwise bootlegged copies (via 2 VHS machines), than actually OWNED movies.

DVD literally elevated movies from being something that you rented when you were in the mood, to something you owned. Something you collected. Something you built an entire room in your house around.
 

bigluigi

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If I may and strickly speaking for myself, VHS was rental ONLY for me. Oh, I did buy some "used' former rental tapes but stopped this practice as most tapes I bought were simply worn out. New tapes were too expensive for me. SD DVD, on the other hand, was very affordable. With few exceptions, I never paid more than $9 per disc. So it came down to what I would rather do...rent a movie for $3 or buy it for $9. So I figured I was only paying $6 per title.:emoji_thumbsup:
 

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