Game of Thrones Season 4 (news and episodes discussion)

Discussion in 'TV Shows' started by oscar_merkx, Apr 4, 2013.

  1. Simon Massey

    Simon Massey Cinematographer
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    Motive ? Id say your own father sentencing you to death for a crime he knows you didnt commit and everything else we have seen or heard is motive enough. I agree the book version is probably better but I don't think the TV version is terrible either. I like the fact that it is a character we truly know and see (Shae) that pushes him over the edge rather than someone telling us about another character. Show, don't tell as they say :)

    The relationship between Jaime and Tyrion however is different and I guess we will have to see how that plays further down the line.

    I do prefer the book version, but I don't have a problem with how it has been adapted.
     
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  2. Simon Massey

    Simon Massey Cinematographer
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    Good luck anyone avoiding spoilers for the missing epilogue - they are loads of stories running with it, but it seems it was never on the cards for Season 4 and no indication if it will ever be in the show.
     
  3. Greg Kettell

    Greg Kettell Screenwriter

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    Could be interesting if the animosity comes into play later in the books & it's missing in the show.
     
  4. Sam Posten

    Sam Posten Moderator
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    I'm actually ok with the removal of LSH. She didn't fit the rest of the story for me. YMMV.
     
  5. Quentin

    Quentin Cinematographer

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    Well, she doesn't yet (neither does her Lt.), but if the show skips them then that means they are not important to the story EVER because we know Weiss and Benioff have the full plot. That would be ridiculous to me...why have they been introduced only to go nowhere? They're too big of a deal to be throwaways.
     
  6. Josh Dial

    Josh Dial Cinematographer

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    An exclusion of a character doesn't necessarily mean he or she isn't important, though I admit it's a bad sign (see, for example, my comments above regarding Jojen). It is completely possible that characters--and indeed parts of plots--are removed in the show, yet remain important in the books. For example:

    (books 4 and 5 spoilers)

    Lady Stoneheart is used primarily in the Brienne/Jamie plot, and its arguable that she can be cut from that thread. Perhaps more importantly, she further evidences R'hollor's powers (though we have already seen the same with Beric and Melisandre), lending support to a major theme that is clearly being developed in many plot threads (R'hllor v the Great Other).

    The showrunners can simply decide that certain themes are unimportant for their story, despite being of central importance to Martin's story. They have already greatly scaled back (indeed, almost eliminated) the major role of prophecy--though admittedly many scenes would be difficult/impossible to film without giving away much of the plot. The gutting of the House of the Undying was particularly egregious in that regard.
     
  7. RolandL

    RolandL Producer

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    I was hoping that Tyrion would kill Cersei after killing his father. But I guess that would upset Jaime or would it?
     
  8. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Executive Producer

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  9. Josh Dial

    Josh Dial Cinematographer

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    Good news: Dorne is great!
     
  10. joshEH

    joshEH Producer

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    [​IMG]

    "Fuck the Hound."
    - Queen Elizabeth II
     
  11. Kevin EK

    Kevin EK Producer
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    I'm not by any means read up on the books. I've been following behind to experience the series first and the books afterward.

    Granted, the series is making its own changes as it goes, but from everything I've seen from the book readers, it's still quite faithful to the overall flow. And many key scenes seem to be right off the pages from the descriptions that I've read.

    For example, the Battle of the Blackwater was thrilling in the episode. As Martin noted in his commentary on the episode, they simply could not afford to also include the chain. I understand that it's Tyrion's masterstroke in trapping Stannis' fleet in the situation, but I honestly didn't miss it in the episode.

    The depiction of Tyrion's final acts in the last episode did not play for me as the behavior of a cold-blooded or vicious man. Had they played a situation of Tyrion verbally attacking Jaime, swearing revenge on him and falsely confessing to the poisoning, that would have been a completely different scenario. The series never made a real character out of Tyrion's first wife. She was mentioned at several points along the way, with it clearly being a sore spot between Tyrion and Tywin. But the series clearly has wanted to play the relationship between Tyrion and Jaime as a positive one - they wanted them to part as friends, not in anger.

    I did not get the impression in the series that Tyrion went into the Tower of the Hand expressly to kill his father. I believe he went there to confront him before leaving town. I do think he wanted an answer from his father how he could have sentenced him to death for a crime he didn't commit. The discovery of Shae in Tywin's bed was a giant slap in the face. It shows that his father was not only a hypocrite but had been sleeping with Shae the whole time Tyrion was locked in the dungeon. It potentially shows that Shae's lies in court were encouraged by his father to get him sentenced to death. It means that his father really did want him dead and was taking advantage off the convenient Joffrey situation to get it to happen. (It also seems to me that Tywin would have been fine with the "deal" he was making with Jaime - to have Tyrion banished to the Night's Watch rather than outright killed. Once Tyrion challenged that in court, Tywin was happy to have Tyrion indeed executed)

    The relationship of Shae to Tyrion in the series plays differently than the cunning person she is described as in the books. The series played it that both Tyrion and Shae loved each other. (I'd argue that they were making a case for on-camera scenes playing better than a description of a woman Tyrion loved many years prior, who we never actually see.) In the show, Tyrion takes multiple steps to protect Shae from Cercei and Tywin, who he believes could have her killed. When he is at his most desperate to get Shae out of the area, he says hurtful things to her that he doesn't mean, hoping this will convince her to leave King's Landing and have a safer life somewhere else. Shae is presented in the show as not being that intelligent, since she really doesn't understand the danger she's in, or what he's trying to do for her. Given this, Shae feels completely rejected by Tyrion. He's already rejected her advances multiple times since marrying Sansa, and now he's, to her thinking, tossed her out on her ear. Her betrayal in court comes across as the act of a spurned lover rather than a calculated move. And the discovery of her in Tywin's bed indicates that Tywin has taken advantage of her "rejection" by Tyrion and used it to help himself. When Shae sees Tyrion in Tywin's bedroom, an argument can be made that she thinks he's there to kill her. (The description of what happens in the book seems to bear that idea out.) She goes for the knife, and the whole situation goes badly from there. I don't know watching the scene that Tyrion would have killed her in the show had she not grabbed the knife and attacked him. It absolutely plays as self-defense, at least at first. It pushes past self-defense when Tyrion kills her rather than just incapacitating her. That's where the anger and the hurt really play.

    I agree that in the show, once Tyrion has killed her, he's fairly set on killing his father. Once Tywin sees Tyrion with the crossbow, I think he knows he's toast, but he thinks he can talk his way out of it. He offers Tyrion the compliments and reassurances he thinks Tyrion wants - that he respects and admires Tyrion, that he'd never let him be executed, that he acknowledges Tyrion as his son. And of course none of this is working now because Tyrion has Shae's blood on his hands and is fully aware that Tywin was orchestrating not just banishment but his death. Tywin's reference to Shae as a whore, after Tyrion has stated his feelings about her, is the last straw. And Tywin can't answer Tyrion's charge that he was ready to see Tyrion condemned to death for a crime he didn't commit. After Tywin rubs more salt into the wound by calling Shae the name again, Tyrion's done. And so is Tywin, who finally shows his true colors when on the verge of death, saying "You're no son of mine".

    I realized after the show that this scene was the only time we'd ever seen Tywin out of his uniform. Every other time, we would see Tywin in his full red and gold regalia, looking quite dignified. For this scene in the privy, Tywin was seen out of his armor. In a sense, we and Tyrion are seeing Tywin for who he really is. And I did not believe his statements about respecting Tyrion or that he wouldn't have him killed. I think the second Tywin got out of that privy and got back to his chambers, he'd have a guard take Tyrion away immediately. Or just take his head. Only one of those two men was going to walk out of that situation alive.

    Granted, none of this reads quite the way the situation is being described for the book. But I think for the show it's compelling to have the key relationship for Tyrion be one that we can see happening in front of us. In a book, we can visualize many other parts of the characters' lives without having an immediacy to them. In a movie, play, or TV show, we need to see those relationships play out. Yes, a monologue by Tyrion about the cousin killing all the beetles is a revealing thing - it tells us about Tyrion's reaction to what he was seeing. But that wouldn't be enough to show us on camera why Tyrion takes the actions that he does here. It would be akin to removing the Sicily scenes of Michael Corleone from The Godfather but basing his ruthless behavior on the death of his wife there. It's a lot more compelling to show the Sicilian wife to understand why she's important. Just talking about her would be fine in the book. In a movie, it's just that - talk.

    This is all a fairly long-winded way for me to say that I think they found an understandable way to present Tyrion's actions in terms of what we've seen on screen. And yes, it keeps a little of the "good" in him throughout - we can empathize with his anger and hurt. But he still does kill these people. I suspect in the coming years, we won't be seeing a lot of the happier, more jovial Tyrion we saw in earlier seasons with Bronn and Pod...
     
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  12. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Executive Producer

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    Michael Slovis directing first two episodes of season fiveNew to the series, he previously directed four episodes of "Breaking Bad" and served as the cinematographer for 50 episodes, including the series finale. He's also directed episodes of "Ed", the original "CSI", "Chicago Fire", "Chicago P.D." and "Law & Order: SVU".In other news, HBO put out a brief press statement confirming that production will expand to Spain for the upcoming fifth season:
     
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  13. Sam Posten

    Sam Posten Moderator
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  14. SamT

    SamT Cinematographer

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    Just finished season 4. It really upset me they killed Shae. I imagined she would be back with Tyrion.

    They made sense together, both being outcasts. I even imagined them both alive at the very end of the series

    and becoming King and Queen!


    It’s maybe the way it was done that didn’t work for me. I don’t buy the self-defense explanation and

    I think Tyrion would have never killed her.
     
  15. Simon Massey

    Simon Massey Cinematographer
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    I think this is down to the way the portrayed Shae which is different in the books.
     
  16. SamT

    SamT Cinematographer

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    It just didn't make sense they both go for the knife. Seeing each other, at worst I was expecting they yell at each other.
     
  17. Charlie Campisi

    Charlie Campisi Screenwriter

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    Though I've read the books, this isn't a spoiler, just an opinion, but Shae's death wasn't about Shae. It was to set Tyrion on a different course. Remember, Tyrion has never been loved by a woman or his family, except for Jaime. His father destroyed Tyrion's first marriage (Tysha) and told Tyrion that Jamie paid Tysha to pretend to love him, then Tywin let a dozen (dozens? I can't remember) of his men rape Tysha. Tyrion thought he found love with Shae only to find out that in his darkest hour she jumped into bed with his father. If there was any tragedy that maybe it was because she misunderstood his trying to get her out of town, well, that's just typical GRRM to kill her off before they could figure it out and for Tyrion's heart to go cold. You may not like it when your favorite characters die, but it's par for the course. It doesn't stop with Shae and Tywin. :)
     
  18. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Executive Producer

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    It's telling that episode three is the only episode on the Blu-Ray that doesn't have at least one audio commentary. Nobody wants to touch that Cersei/Jaime rape scene with a forty foot pole. Unless the show really goes off the rails in the coming seasons, I think that scene will go down as the single greatest miscalculation of the entire show. It doesn't feel organic the way it plays, and it completely sabotages Jaime's character.

    On the other hand, the Hound robbing the old farmer and his shy daughter played much better this viewing for me. You really get the sense from Rory McCann's performance that that Hound sees the recent turmoil as the start of Westeros's troubles, and not the apex of them. He's about getting as far away and as fast away as he possibly can. When he abandoned his post during the Battle of the Blackwater and fled, he made a choice and he made it in accordance with his code. By the time he robs the farmer, he's in pure survival mode.
     
  19. SamT

    SamT Cinematographer

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    Personally I wasn't shocked by the Hound robbing the old farmer. It was completely in his character. He wasn't an "honorable" (missing the word) character and Arya repeatedly mentioned she wants to kill him. I loved the way she departed from him and didn't kill him. It was both noble and worse than killing!
     

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