false advertising?

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Jeremy Swenson, Feb 14, 2005.

  1. Jeremy Swenson

    Jeremy Swenson Stunt Coordinator

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    last april i bought my panasonic lcd 50 inch, i didnt know much about hd at the time, right on the front of the tv there is a logo that says hdtv 1080i, after a while i realized my tv is actually only 720p, why would they put that on the tv and how is that legal? thats like buying a car with a tag on it say turbo 6liter v10 when its really a 350 v8, both are fine,but not what i thought i paid for,

    i know it may not be a huge deal, but it irritates me , maybe i can make them give me a new one with 1080i for real , i mean thats what they sold me on in the first place so thats what i should get right?,

    i was halfway joking so i was going to put a smiley there, but for real-why can they do that when it isnt the real resolution of the tv?
     
  2. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    Greetings

    Probably means compatible ... given that at the time, most of the broadcasters were doing 1080i rather than 720p ...

    And afterall ... 1080 is bigger than 720 ... and it is a numbers game ...

    Regards
     
  3. Jeremy Swenson

    Jeremy Swenson Stunt Coordinator

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    i know what you are saying ,but say someone comes in looking for a 1080i tv, this one says "hdtv 1080i" on it right on the tv case, but it isnt a 1080i, it is 720
     
  4. John S

    John S Producer

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    But it will display 1080i, it just converts it to 720p...

    Many CRT sets can't really display 1080i lines either by the way, but they display 1080i content, so they can say it too I suppose.


    I sure wouldn't be to dissapointed in a 720p fixed pixel display, that's for sure for 1080i material. I mean, that's a nice display.
     
  5. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    What about the people that buy the TV and think that everything they watch on it is HD1080i? [​IMG]

    Even the VHS and cable ... WOW! HDTV they tell their friends ...

    Regards
     
  6. Jeremy Swenson

    Jeremy Swenson Stunt Coordinator

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    im not sure if you get my point, i know that just because it says 1080i on it doesnt mean that everything is really hd,vcr's and all that, my point is it says right on it that it is a 1080i tv and it isnt, it cannot display a 1080i picture, again-i know it can take a 1080i input, but that is not what it is saying right on the tv,

    what if i bought a edtv plasma , with a 480p display, they shouldnt be allowed to say HDTV 1080i on the tv just because it can downconvert it to show on the display, right?, because it isnt 1080i,its 480, same thing as with 720p to 1080i
     
  7. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    We get your point just fine. [​IMG]

    Take it up with the lawyers then.

    For those in the know ... it doesn't matter ... and for those not in the know ... well, it still doesn't matter. It's not like anyone is being cheated.

    They don't make digital displays with 1080i chips.

    Regards
     
  8. John S

    John S Producer

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    I think I have seen it on a few odd brands of Plasma ED displays to tell you the truth, I just seem remembering, pondering the same thing your posting about, for about 2 seconds when I seen it.
     
  9. Jeremy Swenson

    Jeremy Swenson Stunt Coordinator

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    "I sure wouldn't be to dissapointed in a 720p fixed pixel display, that's for sure for 1080i material. I mean, that's a nice display. "



    i am not dissappointed, but that is still not the point, it seems like all the responses boil down to saying it doesnt matter what it is advertised as, it is still good,

    think about this, someone wants a 1080i display,it was the top at the time,1080p now, so they go into a store, most of the sets are 720p,not bad, but one set says right on the tv that it is 1080i, it doesnt say anything about downconverting to 720p, why not say what is the truth and say it is 720p? because it misleads the unaware customer (me) and that person buys the one with the most resolution,

    you can say it doesnt matter all you want,they still flat out misrepresent the product they are selling, just because it is still good doesnt make it right,

    3000 bucks for a tv -it should be exactly what it says, again, there is no fine print saying it can handle 1080i, it say the tv IS a 1080i display, i dont get how people are defending that, it really isnt a huge deal and i wont get a lawyer like someone said, but why defend a company misrepresenting a 3000 dollar product?

    if i go to buy a dvd that says widescreen on it, but it really is full screen is that ok because it still shows the movie, and i should have known better? no it isnt, same thing
     
  10. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    Jeremy,

    There are quite a few HD purists who sincerely believe that 720p is superior to 1080i. Both are legitimate HD scanrates.

    The fact is that since it's a fixed pixel display, it does not have scanlines and thus the number of scanlines and whether they are progressive or interlaced is not really applicable to that type of set in the first place.

    The vast majority of the uninformed public have only really heard of 1080i as being HD, thus they put that on the front of the set rather than 720p. 720p is a lower number so some would be decieved into thinking it's inferior to 1080i and thus would not buy the set.

    Apparently when you bought the set you also were unaware that a 720p native display is just as "HD" as a 1080i native display, and you still seem to be under this false impression and thus feel somehow cheated.

    Granted the set will not display native 1080i so it could be argued that the "1080i" on the front of the set is deceptive on that basis. What it will do is accept a 1080i signal and convert it to 720p, just as most all crt based sets will accept 720p but must convert it to 1080i. I have a 1080i native crt model, feed it 1080i which is on some channels actually 720p upconverted by my HD box. I can't see any difference in pq between native 1080i and sideconverted 720p.


    Your set is not inferior to one that will display native 1080i in any way, you DO have a true High Definition display.

    In fact, since my set has only 7" guns like the vast majority of crt based sets it is techically not capable of the full, true HD pixel count. Your 720p set is capable of the full pixel count and as such is more "high definition" than all but the tiny minority of 1080i native sets that have 9" crts.

    Get past the decal on the front and realize you have more pixels than the vast majority of 1080i native sets, maybe you'll feel better [​IMG]
     
  11. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    Greetings

    Of course with most HD programs, we are lucky if the signal itself actually has enough detail to fill the entire panel.

    If they were using 720p cameras ... by the time that signal gets to your TV ... the real time pixel count would have dropped from 950,000 pixels down to 700,000 to 750,000 pixels of real detail. It's called head room and every time a signal is processed on its way to your TV ... loss is incurred.


    Regards
     
  12. John S

    John S Producer

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    I'm not defending anything. I just don't think it is that big of a deal, if it could not downconvert 1080i material, I do think then it would be false advertising.

    I think at best, you would only get a full refund if you pressed the issue / took it to court or anything like that.

    It would be interesting to follow your progress though if you do press the issue. So keep us informed.
     
  13. Allan Jayne

    Allan Jayne Cinematographer

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    The 1080i HDTV logo could be thought of as deceptive, but the TV does accept 1080i source material.

    Although 720p is a U.S. ATSC HDTV standard, most HDTV's do not accept it. They rely on an external converter box to convert 720p shows to 1080i for them. So those sets could not truthfully display a little logo under the screen saying 720p HDTV.

    Video hints:
    http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/video.htm
     
  14. michael_mo

    michael_mo Stunt Coordinator

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    I suppose it is not a true description of the TV. A lot of what is advertised on the stickers at BB or CC are gross exaggerations.
    How many times is a Kenwood receiver rated at "100 watts per channel".. when you later realize its 100 wpc only at 1 khz.
    But the big, flashy, eye-catching sticker reads "100 watts per channel". The average BB shopper, hell 98% of the BB shoppers, will then think, ""wow what a heck of a price.... the Denon at that overpriced, high-end store up the street was twice the cost and had only 80 watts per channel. This Kenwood company must be killer! I am going with the Kenwood and I am going to brag to all my friends that my system is 100 wpc

    Also, most salemen dont have a clue on what 720p or 1080i actually is.

    At this point in the HT world, its buyer beware.
     
  15. Alan Wise

    Alan Wise Stunt Coordinator

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    Jeremy,

    Although I do understand your primary concern, I think that you are getting lost in the numbers. Most poeple see 1080i as being better than 720p. Oviously 1080 is a higher number than 720 right? Wrong! The difference is in the "i" versus the "p" at the end of each number. There are many threads that discuss the differences between the two. Bottom line is that 1080i basically is equal to 540p. With this said, 720p is more desirable. However, you do not see any (?) CRT sets able to do 720p, so they stick with 1080i (540p).
    Bottom line is that your TV can take either resolution and display it properly.
    I agree the "1080i" logo is a little deceiving though. But in your V10 versus 350 V8 analogy, it is the other direction. You've got a 5.7 liter badge, but you actually have a 7.4 liter capability.
    Anyone that disagrees please feel free to chime in. I promise that I am not too fragile.

    Best Regards, Alan Wise
     
  16. Jeremy Swenson

    Jeremy Swenson Stunt Coordinator

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    reading this makes it seem like i am saying i dont like my tv anymore, i just meant to post something saying its odd they put a 1080i badge on my tv when it is really 720p, i am not going to follow anything up on this,no lawyers or anything like that, like i said, i still think they should put the right one on, for that much money you should know what you are buying,

    this thread kind of expanded beyond what i meant, either way i am planning on just waiting until i can afford a 1080p tv, but even if it says 1080p on the front i better check to be sure right[​IMG]
     
  17. Jeremy Swenson

    Jeremy Swenson Stunt Coordinator

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    wierd, check this out, according to this review it says 1080i is displayed at 1080i
    http://www.hdtvpub.com/productdb/tel...C13&tvnum=1031

    Resolutions Displayed

    1080i is Displayed As: 1080i
    720p is Displayed As: 720p
    NTSC is Displayed As: 480p
    Or NTSC is Displayed As: 480i




    that doesnt make sense either, it is 720p, how could it show 1080i without converting it to 720p, actually it is a fixed pixel display,no way to show any other picture than 720p right?

    people just looking at a first tv have to be confused
     
  18. Brad E

    Brad E Second Unit

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    Jeremy, it seems to me that this group of people are so used to being mislead and lied to by manufactures that they have accepted it as the norm. Which it is. You would likely get more of a reaction if you had posted how the manufacturer stated the truth.
     

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