External amplification: I'm convinced (1 Viewer)

[Mike Knapp]

I typed when I was angry....I am still angry so I wont type.
Mike
[Edited last by Mike Knapp on August 16, 2001 at 07:46 PM]

 

[Martice]

Although I do claim to hear different levels of headroom, clarity and control between various amps as well as receivers, I think that it's important to the consumer who believes in differences in amps, to also believe that Krell and M. Levinson are that expensive because they do to some degree sound better than the amps that they currently own. For whatever reason be it the parts, build or where it's made even, some of us really WANT to believe in the differences in amps. What happens if a person who believes in the sound changes in amps didn't hear any differences between a mid-fi amp and one of the big expensive brands? Would we then say well his hearing is off? Well the rest of his equipment isn't up to par to truley hear the differences that this expensive amp is presenting? Are the returns so diminished that you can no longer hear them?
My god is not quite your god but we possibly believe in the same god but only when I need to believe.
------------------
What if it gets no better than this!?!
[Edited last by Martice on August 17, 2001 at 06:53 AM]

 

[Tim_S]

Just for the heck of it, I thought I would throw some "real" science into the discussion. There is actually reason to think that the long hailed placebo effect in medical studies that people keep thinking also occurs when auditioning stereo equipment does not really exist. Here is a link to a Scientific American brief bit on it and if you lke you can read the actual journal article referenced: http://www.sciam.com/news/052501/1.html
Basically some researchers went through over medical 700 studies to try to see if the placebo group had any different results from the no placebo group and found none.
Now does this mean no one auditioning high end amps tricks themselves into hearing differences that aren't there? Of course not. Does it mean that those who like to shout all the time about DBT's and placebo effects should perhaps temper their shouting? I think so. . .
Tim

 

[David Judah]

The only people that claim there is no difference between receivers and separates are those with receivers.

And what goes hand in hand with that is:
The only people that claim there are no sonic differences between amps are those who haven't tried different ones in their systems.
I find it interesting that a majority of those who have actually upgraded their amps have experienced a benefit, while those who have not give generalizations of why it shouldn't be so.
One member has a signature that I think applies here:
Knowledge without experience is just information.
DJ

 

[Alex F.]

Michael:
Threatened? There is nothing threatening about a person's glaring lack of knowledge and experience on a subject. As Jeremy said, it's annoying. It is aggravating to be continually distracted from the subjects on which threads are focused.
I've been involved in audio for a very long time and on occasion have come across similar pseudo-hobbyists who, not having a clue about a subject, go forth and attempt to "educate" others. There are a few people who do this in all walks of life. Unfortunately, this type of activity has seemingly become more prevalent since the advent of the internet.
You've been fortunate to be spared Jaleel's comments in other posts. He has indeed said that all amps possess the same sonic signature. Further, he will tell any person who's considering the purchase of a new amp in an effort to improve the sound quality of his/her system that any new power amp will sound just like that person's old amp.
(How would you like to be a brilliant electrical engineer, spend thousands of hours on a new power amp design, carefully watching that design proceed from conception to product release, then have someone say--without ever listening to it--that it sounds identical to every amp designed by everyone else since amp design immemorial?)
By the way, when did I advise anyone in this thread to go out and spend thousands of dollars on a new power amp, or when did I say here that a separate amp will definitely make an improvement? It is up to the individual to decide whether a separate amp will sound better than what he/she already utilizes. But I will defend a person's right to try and make system improvements, including obtaining a potentially better sounding power amp.
Will a new amp sound very similar, a bit better, or significantly better? It depends on the sound quality of the amplifier built into that person's receiver, the sound quality of the power amp under consideration, the level of resolution provided by the owner's associated components, and that person's ears. Each of these factors play a part. Jaleel, on the other hand, would say unequivocally that none of this matters, because all amplifiers sound alike.
Finally, why does anybody here need to objectively prove anything to anybody else, as you stated? Are hobbyists now required to provide empirical data about their findings? If you say you enjoy the sound quality provided by your loudspeakers, that they sounded better to your ears than others you auditioned, are you then obligated to objectively prove how you arrived at such a conclusion?
PS: If I have time in Manhattan tomorrow, I'm going to audition two or three power amps (seriously), but I'll be sure to swallow a couple of sugar pills beforehand to rule out any so-called placebo effects.

 

[Michael P]

"I find it interesting that a majority of those who have actually upgraded their amps have experienced a benefit, while those who have not give generalizations of why it shouldn't be so."
Hehe, so you mean its only the people who have already spent lots of money upgrading their system, who find an improvement, while the people who don't decide to upgrade (or can't)actually don't find an improvement. Hmm can't fault that logic.
However, I am not trying to tell you that there is no difference between amplifiers. What I am saying is that usually the difference will be relatively small. A little brighter, more headroom, etc. If you think that that difference is worth the money than for goodness sakes buy it, I did, once upon a time.
However, I do think that some of the initial claims of huge improvements, like in the opening post of this are a little difficult to swallow, especially without any kind of direct testing. And I think its silly for people to be iritated that someone would question their results when they weren't done in a scientific manner. But thats just my 2cents.

 

[Kevin Alexander]

Maybe I can throw a little cold water of my own on this discussion....

Why doesn't Denon or Onkyo or Krell just make a receiver that has these high quality amps built in? I mean is there something that makes it physically impossible to do this? Couldn't Krell just combine its pre/pro and one of its 5 channel amps into one receiver?

Sony did this. Combining their TAE-9000ES pre/pro w/ their matching power amp (TAN-9000ES) and putting it into one box to make the flagship Sony 777ES receiver. I've owned both the separates and the receiver. Everyone who heard the separates and receiver version next to each other (which was an easy thing to do at any Sony ES authorized dealer) could tell NO DISCERNABLE DIFFERENCE in sound quality. It is a fact that if you purchased the matching power amp to mate w/ the receiver, you would've wasted your money. That is the reason why Sony discontinued the 777ES receiver (it was seriously cutting into their sales of separates). It is also the reason why there aren't very many 777ES receivers on the market. And did I mention that it received the "Receiver of the Year" Award in Europe for the year 2000? Those who've owned the 777ES receiver can confirm this. It is my experience that a receiver will only benefit from external amplification if the receiver's amps are mediocre to poor.

 

[John-D]

Alex,
You seem to be very knowledgable and experienced having conducted many double blind tests and emerged successful. I see DBT proponents throwing around dubious links in support of their arguments. Many cite some stupid Scientific Journals or Publications in something called an AES (u can get details at audioreview.com it's full of such nuts who don't believe in expensive amps making a world of sonic difference and all)
.... but i'm only interested in getting some ammo from you for tests that went the other way.
Care to share the data?? I believe Krell or Mark Levinson or Classe must definitely have such data on tests which statiscally put this discussion to rest once and for all.. afterall it's their business? don't you think??
Respectfully

 

[DaleB]

It is my experience that a receiver will only benefit
from external amplification if the receiver's amps are mediocre to poor.
__________________________________________________ _________
Then I guess there is no way we could add an amp that sounded inferior to the way a quality receiver sounded previously, and still have more power reserve. Ya think?
[Edited last by DaleB on August 17, 2001 at 07:49 PM]

 

[David Judah]

Hehe, so you mean its only the people who have already spent lots of money upgrading their system, who find an improvement, while the people who don't decide to upgrade (or can't)actually don't find an improvement. Hmm can't fault that logic.

Read what I wrote a little more carefully and you'll realize that's not what I said at all.
I encourage everyone who is skeptical to actually go test for yourselves, instead of just telling the rest of us who have actually tried different amps that it is all placebo.
Test however you like--SBT, DBT, or even DBT with a cherry on top, then come back and we should have much less to discuss because you'll agree with the rest of us.
DJ

 

[KeithR]

Alex,
I live in Manhattan too...if you like, I would like to tag along...I am a separates person and am always in the mood to audition amps. You can come over and see my Odyssey Stratos if you like....10x better than most of the amps on the market. I do lust after Jeff Rowlands however...and tubes
Cheers,
Keith
[Edited last by KeithR on August 18, 2001 at 04:31 PM]

 

[Razvan V]

I too have owned the Sony 777ES receiver and the 9000ES separates. While it's true that in stereo the 777 and the separates sound almost identical in 5 channels the separates are better.
The combo 777ES/TA-N9000ES with the amp in BTL mode sounds better than the 777ES by itself.
Razvan

 

[Mike Knapp]

quote: Hehe, so you mean its only the people who have already spent lots of money upgrading their system, who find an improvement, while the people who don't decide to upgrade (or can't)actually don't find an improvement. Hmm can't fault that logic.[/quote]
And only those that have had sex will know of the enjoyment while those that have not wont have a clue what they are missing. Hmmmm, I cant fault that logic either!
Experience is the key here....not blind testing.
Mike
[Edited last by Mike Knapp on August 18, 2001 at 07:01 AM]

 

[Jay Mitchosky]

I have but one request - can we try and keep this discussion away from criticizing (en masse) a single member and his statements in this thread? Many thanks.
--Jay

 

[Michael P]

Mike you make it sound like the people who question how much better seperates are have never listened to seperates. You are incorrect, I have not only listened to separates many times, I have owned separates, and have gone back to integrated. I did not find the improvement to be worth the money. And you also seem to have lost the point of the original post once again. The claim that was made was that huge sonic gaines were made by adding a seperate amplifier to a reciever. I was, and still am surprised that this is the case, slight improvements maybe, but in my experience changing an amplifier, unless it is underpowered for the speakers, will not make huge differences. Changing to a different preamp perhaps, but I've never seen it with just a different amp. But I digress the point is that people made claims, that I have not seen, without being able to(or willing to) back them up. If you like it better buy it, its your money, if you start making claims, don't get upset when people question them.

 

[Mike Knapp]

Michael,
Just to clarify a few things.
It is my belief that separates will make a large difference for serious two channel music listening...much less so for movie soundtracks.
When I claim an improvement in some sonic attribute you can bet that I am referring to two channel music applications almost 95% of the time. Film soundtracks and multi-channel music are hardly yardsticks to judge sound quality with, in my opinion.
I suppose I should have made that clear from the get go. I start with two channel music and then "trickle down" to the other audio formats.
Sorry for any confusion or ruffled feathers.
Mike
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[Edited last by Mike Knapp on August 18, 2001 at 04:44 PM]