DVD-A Disappearing? (1 Viewer)

[Paul.S]

Any more info re whether a suit was filed, Justin?

Although I understand where you're coming from, MTS, in your specific criticism (i.e., asking Lee what titles he's referring to), on the general tip I share the concern Lee is voicing with these comments.

It of course remains to be seen but, speaking for myself, I just took it for granted that DualDisc would be about giving DVD-A backward compat. I had something of an epiphany a while back wherein I realized that that may simply not be the focus for some labels. In other words, I think it is possible, if not likely, that some labels will use Dual more as a way to marry the popularity of DVD-V content with the CD format. Unfortunately, I don't think it's a given that Dual is going to always already mean hi rez in the form of DVD-A content.

-p

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Yet it's OK for you to always assume the worst and imply that every 48khz release had a better source available?

If you are going to be critical of releases coming out in 48khz, you need to be able to show that those same releases existed in a high-res source that could have been used instead.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Michael,

Why are you so defensive with respect to DualDisc?

All I am doing is raising valid doubts about how much hirez content will be issued. I think you are over the top to imply I am raising fear, uncertainty, and doubt as though it were part of some weird smear compaign...on the contrary I have been consistent in saying I want this format to succeed as it may offer more consumers more hirez choices.

Just chill out and let's have an honest discussion of the possibilities...

 

[Paul.S]

MTS:

We're all largely speculating/hypothesizing/postulating/projecting here, Michael--on everything from the prospect of hi rez on Dual to the possible significance of the mixed messages coming from the House of Blue Shirts via DVD-A not getting re-stocked in apparently only some BB locations yet no formal announcement about same. It's kinda what a significant cadre of repeat offenders around here do (this writer included).

Having said that, I would offer as "Exhibit A" the piss poor support by the majors of hi rez for about four years now as support for my conjecture that the future of hi rez on Dual is not necessarily a sure thing.

Am I spreading "FUD"? That would presume that anybody really gives a sh*t about what I have to say.

-p

 

[Lee Scoggins]

By Mike's definition, we all are. :rolleyes

I guess DualDisc is the 2004 Sacred Cow.

 

[gene c]

On page 24 of the August issue of Home Theater Mag it reports the RIAA's website saying DVD-A is out selling SACD by five to one. DVD-A has 2.7% of the market and SACD .5%. Whether this is true or not I can't say. I'm sure others around here have heard this and argued the merits of the findings. I'm sure the facts were challenged and the process criticized, as they should have been. But if there is any truth to it at all, it may be the little ray of hope you were asking for . But even so, 2.7% isn't much.

 

[Paul.S]

Oh geez . . . Lee isn't that the Peter Hart survey that was roundly discussed in your thread, RIAA: SACD leads in Shipments, DVDA in Awareness?

-p

 

[Phil A]

Those statistics on sales are from ltd. sources and only count non-hybrids, a large portion of which are old Sony stuff (since Sony is not doing much these days). It is hard to figure out hybrids and also who is buying DVD-A for the 5.1 DVD-V. There were several threads related to this. Both formats are obviously niche and I know last year even LPs outsold them (I have not followed more recent stats).

Personally I am not at all looking forward to DualDisc. If the CD only version is available, I'd buy that first. Until they are out a long while and I'm personally satisfied there are not reported problems or ill effects to my hardware I'm content to let someone else be the guinea pig. I have several references sources to play CDs on and a good CD still sounds very good. I don't play my hi-rez stuff in the car (make CD-Rs) anyway and I buy hi-rez for the hi-rez, whether it is SACD or DVD-A.

I don't think DVD-A is dead nor SACD. They are just niche formats and will remain so until there are current releases on the formats. Back catalog stuff and some very few current releases are not going to make them become mainstream any time soon. Buy the software you like on whatever format and enjoy it.

 

[gene c]

Yes Paul, it appears to be one and the same. I must have skipped that thread because I don't remember reading it. HT Mag got the numbers right but it looks like they confused sales with awareness.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I agree and there are a few current releases like the Indigo Girls album which came out this week on SACD. But I see tremendous value in having a good niche format. Some of the greatest recorded music was niche....look at:

1. MoFi albums.
2. DCC albums.
3. Speaker's Corner LPs.

We should be enjoying these formats, not worrying about mainstream acceptance...that would likely bring sonic compromises.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Looks like DualDisc is also becoming a royalty war victim....

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...ad.php?t=37836

Man these guys need to settle this label-publisher war fast.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Where's Michael St. Clair now?

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Not a sacred cow at all. But you take every chance possible to bash any digital format that is not SACD, and you just don't seem to like it when anybody calls you on it.

DualDisc is no sacred cow, and neither are any of the other formats. But when your bias is so apparent, I'm not going to ignore it.

You do pay some lip service to other formats these days, but it is obvious that how you really feel has not changed.

You always look for a chance to bash a DVD-A or DualDisc when it includes a 48khz PCM track, and you blame it on the labels or the marketing/positioning of the format. The fact is, Lee, that there are a ton of low-res PCM recordings out there.

Decca/Philips has classical and opera pieces that are being released to this day, in CD and SACD, that were natively recorded in 48khz PCM.

Artists like Peter Gabriel, Bjork, Tori Amos, Paul Simon, Dire Straits, Frank Zappa, and the Flaming Lips, among countless others, have recorded albums in 48/44khz PCM, and sometimes even produced them in Pro Tools and used DAT.

Telarc has recorded hundreds if not thousands of classical performances in 48khz PCM.

You have no business bashing a DVD-A or DualDisc for using 48khz PCM unless you know for a fact that a better source was available. Instead, you like to pretend that every recording does have a better source available, and you do bash every chance you get, which only demonstrates your lack of objectivity.

And your hypocrisy is further illustrated by the fact that you never, ever criticize the release of SACD when authored from a 48khz PCM source. It's no great secret that tons of such SACDs are out there, but how they are created is rarely disclosed. But the good folks at Decca/Philips are actually willing to disclose their 48khz PCM sourced SACDs, such as this disc right here. But where are the Lee Scoggins criticisms of such discs? There is none, and the reason why is as plain as the nose on your face.

Lee, just admit to us that you want any form of high-res other than SACD to die, and that you really hope that DualDisc is either low-res/lossy and/or fails miserably. Just admit it.

Those of us who are fans of music instead of technology are just hoping for well-mastered, well-presented music in high-res, and if it takes a new format to gain some acceptance and get higher volume...well, we welcome it.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I have also been consistent on not liking SACDs sourced from below 96k (and even then I wish they were DSD). So your insinuations that my SACD preference are biasing me on DualDisc is just not supported by the facts. Long-time readers here know that I prefer an all DSD recording chain which to my ears anyway produces some of the most realistic sound available.

The real news here in the news story is the further evidence that the labels are not focusing on the hirez component but on the video layer. I think that is what concerns Paul and I. That we may have yet another format launch but it may not address many of us from a sonic quality standpoint.

I would like to see DualDisc if it leads to better music, but just adding some video feature is not a huge value add for me personally and I bet not a big value add for most audiophiles.

 

[Marc Colella]

I agree, it won't add much value for most audiophiles - which is why it's being aimed at the average consumer (who prefer/notice video content over improved sound).

It's smart for DVD-A to ride the potential success of this format in order for their survival.

 

[Jean D]

because to be honest, I got turned on to DVD-A because of the superior sound first and foremost. But the extra video features make me feel like Im getting more bang for my buck. If the disc can hold more info and could be used to store extra goodies, great, more power to the consumer.

as far as the argument of the whole "SACD being preferred over DVD-A because you don't need a monitor" issue, I feel that perhaps to fix this manufacturers should create players that know if a monitor device is connected or not and if not, automatically play the title using the more advanced connected method. (i.e. if multi-channel is connected, it automatically detects and plays)That way, you wouldn't need a monitor.

 

[anthony_b]

This DVD-A vs. SACD thing is getting old already, is there anything about this discussion that hasn't been discussed aready ?

I'm going out on a limb here, but here it goes:

In a blind test none of us would be able to tell the diffrence between these two formats, so lets just let it go already...:rolleyes

 

[Rachael B]

Jean, I'm with you. I'd like DVD-A more if they'd redo the ergonomics some. I wish there were uni-players that had little or any video circuitry...maybe just a composite or S-video out for those who wanted it...?

 

[gene c]

I rarely turn on my monitor when listening to a DVD-A. Most DVD-A's will begin automatic playback within 45 sec to one minute (some, like SheDaisy and Greg Kihn's Anthology playback right away) and if they don't or I'm impatient, two clicks of the "enter" button gets it going. So start-up isn't much of an issue with me. But there are other things to complain about (mostly copyright protection ).

 

[Lee Scoggins]

We are not arguing about SACD vs. DVDA in this thread...we are discussing what DualDisc may wind up being and some of us are concerned that a lack of hirez may occur due to a preference by some for video.

As for a blind test, some of us have A/B/X a live mic, a DSD feed, and a hirez PCM feed. I preferred the DSD feed as being more faithful but others may disagree. The main point I think all of us can agree on is that either hirez PCM, DVDA or SACD, offer a huge improvement over regular Red Book CDs.

In fact, I think we argue a bit because we feel strongly that record labels should offer more hirez product and at lower prices to combat the MP3 phenomena.

I agree with Jean and Rachael that having some standards on DVDA playback would be very important.