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DSOTM on DVD-Audio...is coming! (1 Viewer)

Michael St. Clair

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Lee,

Bob Ludwig is extremely well regarded and works with both formats.

In fact, you have referenced Ludwig in over two dozen posts, usually quoting him to support your position on DSD/SACD.

How can you discount his opinions now?

I certainly agree that Kawakami should be able to address any points made, and that the site should publish his response.
 

Lee Scoggins

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“Please don’t forget,” Bob Ludwig added, “…in the real world, time-is-money deadlines loom over everyone’s head. A MLP encode engineer might intentionally, on their own, choose to slightly compromise the integrity of the music of a difficult encode in order to meet a deadline, rather than taking the time necessary to go the two or three attempts in order to do it with zero loss.
He goes on to mention that sometimes use a DSD master for DVDA reference recordings...very interesting...why did Bob do the recordings in DSD in the first place? he likes it better?

The bottom line is this: each hirez format has flaws.

Likely the best "implementers" like Chesky, AIX, Groove Note, Telarc, etc. are going to provide the best sound for the consumer.

But to pick on David Kawakami when he readily admits he does not know about the MLP details is just vindictive and stirring the pot.
 

Mark_Waldrep

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Lee,

Your characterization of my posting and intent misses the mark...again. It is well know that I prefer and support the issuance of high-resolution, multichannel PCM audio because it is the only technology that is robust enough (multichannel decks, processors, tools etc), that allows me to do what I want with my recordings AND the fact that DVD-Audio includes the opportunity for rich multimedia. Sadly, DSD equipment and the SACD format are not on a par with PCM tools and the ability of the DVD format to include video and annotational extras.

As someone who read the comments by James Guthrie and then was asked to comment on my own experience and practices making high-resolution tracks and encoding them with MLP, I provided my assessment of the his statements. The brick-wall filter thing is a red herring...and Bob Stuart was refering to the noise shaping and the abundance of high-frequency noise added to a DSD stream in addition to the jitter comment.

What happened, in my opinion, is that David Kawakami and James Gutherie sought to captialize on the release of DSOTM in front of a large press contingent by making clearly erroneous remarks. After all, noth admitted that they had no experience with MLP or the DVD-Audio format! They were presented as facts...and I, for one, was very glad to have the opportunity to help put the record straight.

Perhaps it's the addition of UMG and BMG to the DVD-Audio camp that has Sony backed up a bit, but as one reader privately emailed to me, "the statements by Mr. Guthrie were so transparent as to be laughable". I only hope others can wade through the mire and get accurate information.

As for the war, I personally don't see any real difficulty in imagining both existing in their own domains. With hardware able to play both...the software rules the day. It's just very hard to have someone of such skill and reputation be so handily manipulated by the proponents of DSD.

IMHO the only true high-resolution releases come from tracks that are made with equipment capable of capturing high-resolution...meaning that NEW recordings need to be made not merely rehashes in 5.1 of older analog and low resolution digital masters.
 

Al B. C

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What happened here is that some people have another reason to rant on for five or six pages about the same crap thay ranted on for a thousand pages in the past.

I couldn't care less about the algorithms, the 1's and 0's, the processes and the main thing - the politics of the formats.

Sony, are you listening? Warner, are you listening. EMI, Universal, are you listening?

Put the goddamned music in my hands and let me be happy!
 

John-Miles

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Mark you made a comment that I would appreciate some clarification on

Denon is going to release a true SACD/DVD-Audio machine later this year
what exactly qualifies as a TRUE universal player?

wahts wrong with my Yamaha :angry: hehehe just kidding, but seriously what is the difference? what am i missing out on here?
 

Mark_Waldrep

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John,

Many of the current hybrid players (SACD and DVD-Audio) convert the direct stream digital signal into a PCM signal prior to converting it to analog. This is not the optimal delivery for an SACD. Denon has assured me that they will be treating the DSD as a native stream and not converting to PCM.

Hope that helps.
 

Phil A

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It is amazing that the producer of the DSOTM, who like everyone else has an opinion on what sounds best with no relation to a particular format or personal financial incentive or stake gets ganged up on that like that with various mistatement of fact and by those who obvoiusly have an agenda. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and should not be subjected to such treatment at all.
 

Lee Scoggins

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meaning that NEW recordings need to be made not merely rehashes in 5.1 of older analog and low resolution digital masters.
Well I certainly agree with this as an engineer, but there is a lot of legacy PCM and analog tapes like Floyd that we should not have to miss in hirez either.

AIX recording sound great in 24/96 and I look forward to hearing more in 24/192, but the pure DSD recordings of the San Francisco Symphony are amazing too.
 

Brian-W

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Or Pink fans might want to wait until the DVD-Audio version is released and forego the additional purchase of an SACD player. They will get the great 5.1 mixes AND all of the cool extras.
Or Pink fans might want to get the SACD version. They will get great 5.1 and 2.0 mixes AND redbook CD audio to play in their car/portable/rip to MP3/etc. and forgo all the 'cool extras' you'll look at once and then never again.

:rolleyes
 

LanceJ

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Phil A: I don't believe anyone was ganging up on Mr. Guthrie. But his opinion was stated so much like fact that person's not familiar with dvd-audio were probably given a negative impression of it.

Unfortunately, dvd-audio has no "central command" that can issue counterstatements to erroneous information, so it looks like its dvd-audio supporters themselves who have to defend it.

Note to Warner & Panasonic: would it be too much to ask for dvd-audio's main backers to SAY SOMETHING every once in awhile to defend their chosen format???

LJ
 

Jesper

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Or Pink fans might want to get the SACD version. They will get great 5.1 and 2.0 mixes AND redbook CD audio to play in their car/portable/rip to MP3/etc. and forgo all the 'cool extras' you'll look at once and then never again.
They might want the DVD Audio version. They will get incredible 5.1 MLP Advacne Resoulution, 5.1 Dolby Digital, 5.1 dts, 2.0 Advance resolution, all eaxtra video stuff and the cd layer on the other site!

SACD just can't handle that. :D
 

Phil A

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Lance, I have to disagree 100%. Neil Young gave a clear in-depth article as to why he prefers DVD-A (and "Harvest" is a great stereo recording on DVD-A) and in fact appears in kiosks they have set-up in Circuit City. Neil Young as someone in the field of music, like Guthrie, is entitled to his opinion and had someone with a financial interest in the SACD camp or DSD recording field with an obvious financial interest made comments that were just not based on fact and were done in the same unprofessional and uncalled for manner as was done in the recent article, my comments would be exactly the same. That is the problem with people who just want to fuel silly stuff vs. enjoying what is available. There are those that take the high road and those that do not.
 

Guy Robinson

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When all is said and done it all comes down to what it sounds like. I play both hi-rez formats and they both sound fantastic or abysmal depending on the authoring, mixing etc process. Dark Side of The Moon sounds phenomenal and so does Zephr - Voices Unbound although I have to give the nod to Zephr as it started as hi-rez from the start. Anyway, buy both and forget stereo and CD's.
 

LanceJ

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Phil A:

:confused:

Er, so what's your point? That it's O.K. for Guthrie to spew misinformation just because this is his opinion?!

LJ
 

John-Miles

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Mark I was under the impression that the Yamaha did not do this conversion, hence the limited bass management in it. do you or anyone else know for sure if this is true or not of the Yamaha S2300?
 

Lee Scoggins

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Unfortunately, dvd-audio has no "central command" that can issue counterstatements to erroneous information, so it looks like its dvd-audio supporters themselves who have to defend it.
I think one could also say the same thing for Super Audio as well. Sony has been more coordinated in distributing information and several audio reporters have commented on this. Also, DVDA has launched the format like 3 or 4 times which has also hurt their credibility in addition to many titles grossly slipping release dates, although that has occurred in SACD land to a lesser extent.
 

Justin Lane

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This thread is hilarious. Talk about a broken record, and defense for industry types who need no defense. :laugh:

J
 

Phil A

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As far as I know, only the new cheap universal players coming out (e.g. $279 Pioneer) do convert the DSD to PCM. I have no knowledge that any of the others do this conversion.

Guthrie was doing no more than stating his opinion and getting in some marketing for the product at the same time. I've already indicated that it is good for fans who want the DVD-A that it is coming out (if in fact it is) in the format, though not good for the format in the same manner as releases by mainstream artists, both past releases and current ones like the upcoming Fleedwood Mac. It also does not do the format good, rather than have one sing praises of their own work to issue misinformation to try to tarnish the successful release of the SACD to deflect from lack of success that is simply due to not having titles available by mainstream artists on mainstream labels. No need for someone with obvious financial interests to beat on poor Mr. Guthrie that did a good job and has an opinion or Neil Young or anyone else.

With all the surround formats available in processors today (e.g. Neo 6, PLII, etc.), I also think good help regular CD sales as well for those who may be fans of surround sound. Many people who don't want to invest in an SACD player (no one should have to buy hardware they don't want) can enjoy surround sound a lot cheaper with a hybrid CD that can be bought in stores for $12-13 vs. getting a DVD-A that will be $25 list unless something is done to current pricing (such as the good job Warner had done). What will help sell these hi-rez releases is software by name artists on mainstream labels at about current CD pricing. Either format may stick around for a while as a niche format but won't go mainstream until software is available at good pricing.
 

LanceJ

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Does anybody know if Pink Floyd did any kind of video (ANY kind) for this album? After watching VH1 lately it is clear many 60s/70s groups did promotional "mini-films" for their albums.

LJ
 

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