Donner Superman 2 SE (merged thread) (1 Viewer)

[Colby]

IMDb also said the DVDs will be released on the 20th. Whoops.

 

[Paul_Scott]

continutity from shot to shot is a problem. You can easily see it in the small snippets of footage they have already released

-the villans chase superman in the air around the city - cut to a c/u of Superman as he turns around (the sky is a twilight blue in the background)

cut to a long shot as Zod comes down into frame and gives him kicks him (sky here is black)

Superman is sent crashing into the Statue of Liberty, gets up

next shot is him flying away from the Statue (however his figure is lit globally as if the flying shot was supposed to have been composited with a daylight background plate)

this is just from seconds of material I've seen so far- I expect the whole thing to be riddle with these kinds of 'issues'

I think the only potentially bad thing Warner did in all of this was to make it a seperate release and not fold it into a four disc set for the second film.

Releasing it seperately sets up expectations, even for people like us who know the circumstances behind the footage, the film, and the effort it took to make it this far.

as for the comments about the first (two) films looking soft on HD- I meant that not due to the age or condition of the materials so much as Unsworths filming/lighting style. Any artistic diffusion is probably going to get slammed by enthusiasts who think every film should look like M:I III or else its a 'third or fourth tier' effort.

 

[Mike_Richardson]

I had the same reaction from watching the clips. There's one moment in the scene where Lois jumps out the window where it's so painfully obvious that someone is dubbing Reeve's dialogue.

Thus, I'm not expecting a true work of art here. This is a fascinating "alternate version" for fans but those who thought it was going to supplant the released II as the "definitive" version just b/c Donner's name is on it may be in for a very rude awakening given the (understandable) problems it's going to have. I'm still pumped up for seeing it, especially the Brando sequences, but it sounds as if some will have to dial down their expectations a bit.

Agreed also that it sounds as if they should have included it in a box set and not in its own, separate release with the amount of fanfare they've been attaching to it -- particularly if it has visual and narrative gaps from scene to scene, which it very well might.

 

[Jonathan Perregaux]

I love movies - and I prefer action ones. But I am more interested in the content of a movie than its artistic value. With that in mind, could someone tell me what is supposed to be so good about the Donner Cut of Superman 2? I've been reading this thread, but so far I haven't seen the reason people here rave about it so much.
Thanks!
Pete

It may very well suck once we see it, but the gist of it is this: The General Consensus is that the Richard Lester version of Superman II was a lot sillier and stupider, lacking depth and heart. It was rushed, re-shot under duress and threw away all the sensibilities that made the first movie such a resounding success. It was a far cry from the version Richard Donner was trying to make (a continuation of Superman: The Movie, which had all these things). I know my initial impression on seeing it for the first time in 1981 was, "What the hell happened?"
As for stupidity, the cellophane "S" sequence speaks for itself.
Richard Lester then went on to make Superman III without any Richard Donner influences, and we all know how much that blew.

 

[Grant H]

Well said, Jonathan.
Kind of a shame about all the shot-to-shot lighting issues, but we couldn't really expect that much money to be poured into this, though it certainly got more attention in the mainstream press than I would have expected. It would be nice if this release makes some money and could get some kind of special edition treatment somewhere down the road. I mean, aside from money, there's no reason continuity like lighting and background plates can't be corrected. I was frankly a bit disappointed to see indications we'll be seeing the turquoise suit make it's appearance again, after the computer re-touches on STM to make it blue as intended. But at least some of my disappointments are out of the way, so I should enjoy the Donner Cut that much more. And I'm sure I'll be in agreement with the reviewer that watching Reeve will be "electrifying." Watching someone else try to mimic him only makes him me appreciate him that much more.
Did the Britain's Empire critic mention anything about the seamless branching option, or was that just talk? If that screen-test footage takes people out of the film that much, the Lester version of the reveal could be a nice option.

 

[Dave H]

Do we really need a review of Superman Returns video quality? Won't it be a direct from digital transfer? Won't its picture be technically perfect? Any complaints would be about the films cinematography, not the transfer, right?

Yes, we still need a review. While it's likely the transfer will be excellent, there still could be compressioning issues, etc. Star Wars - Attack of the Clones which is a digital transfer has moments excessive artifacting (ex: see how the red walls appear to be moving in room near beginning of movie). All in all, the movie still looks quite good.

 

[Robert Anthony]

I'm already seeing hints of backlash from people not too in-tune with why this is being released. They're already starting to call it marketing hype for hype's sake and that the edit was rushed just to capitalize.
It's a TOTALLY wrong read of the situation but I'm warning you guys--be ready to read a fair amount of that coming up whether the disc shows such blatant continuity errors or not.

 

[Grant H]

Honestly, we can probably thank the hype produced by Superman Returns for this ever happening. Makes it a lot easier sell to the masses. The Donner Cut is certainly not it's own hype machine--only to us wackos on the Internet.

 

[Matthew Clayton]

Well, the Donner cut of Superman II has gotten its fair share of publicity, both in the magazines and on TV. There was an interview with Margot Kidder on Entertainment Tonight recently about her thoughts about it and how shooting the previously unseen footage with Reeve went.
Once the cut is released, I think the overall quality of the film will overrun the amount of continuity and other errors. And I don't think the cut was rushed in order to capitalize on the DVD release of Superman Returns (it was intended to be released alongside SR a year in advance, I think). And when we got the news that Michael Thau going to work on the Donner cut of SII, he had already started cutting it from scratch.
It generally takes around 4 - 6 months for an editor to cut a tentative version of the film together, barring dailies. So I think Thau probably worked up until late June or early July under Donner's supervision, and then sent the final cut up for sound restoration, visual F/X and so forth. (I wished the WB or Richard Donner had persuaded John Williams to score this cut, but we can't have everything.) And I hope the Dolby Digital 5.1 mix will be as good as the one for the 2001 expanded cut of Superman: The Movie.
Still, I can't wait to see all this undiscovered footage come November 28.

 

[Paul_Scott]

with a project like this , though, I would imagine the approach would need to be quite different

1) inventory all the elements and see what whole sequences are missing- along with what elements within sequences are missing (reaction shots and other general pick-ups)

2) after a rough assembly of what is there is prepared, then a creative team has to step in (director or writers or both) and determine scenarios that can be used to fill-in whats missing.

Can they use stock footage?

can they use out-takes from totally different scenes?

can they use footage from the theatrical cut?

can they use cgi to bridge differences?

assembling a quick and dirty rough cut of the film- leaving out what is missing - is essentially what would amount to pre-production work here.

there is still a need to pre-visualize the sequences that aren't intact, and figure out how best to finish those.

all of this probably done while working within a very restricted and fixed budget.

I would be very curious as to how much of the film was assembled prior to getting a budget from the studio- and how much of this project was done with a budget in place.

For instance, if Michael had put together a rough cut on his own dime, and then diagramed out exactly what needed to be finished, or ways for specific shots to be fudged (i.e using the back of a newly shot stand-in to interact with old blue screen footage, etc) and the studio saw that and then gave him a budget for it, that would be quite different than if everyone was on the clock from day one, with the prep work eating up tiny bits of the budget along the way.

I still think anyone going in expecting to enjoy this as a movie os going to be disappointed with it- the herking and jerking of being taken out of the film frequently by awkward continuity and the like I expect to liken to mechanical bull riding. If you viewed the cut simply as an interesting project it might go down a lot easier.

 

[Joe_G]

.
Still, I can't wait to see all this undiscovered footage come November 28.

This is what I'm curious about as well. Has anyone heard how the audio is on this? I'm hoping something similar in quality to the 2001 Superman: TM cut, like Matthew, but I don't think we'll see it. Also, what's up with the music? Are they taking it from Superman:TM (which I'm hoping, since no new score was created) or will it be from Superman II(Lester's cut) or other?

 

[Patrick H.]

Based on the clips so far, the music is a mix of recylced Williams recordings from #1, and some Ken Thorne adaptations for the released version of #2. The credits on the back cover of the disc seem to bear this out..."Music by John Williams / Additional music by Ken Thorne" or something to that effect. Considering how much unused material and alternate takes were generated by 'Superman' (including stuff that may not even have made the Rhino 2-CD reissue), I think it'd be pretty easy for a skilled editor to assemble a majority of Williams material for a new score.

 

[Matthew Clayton]

are missing- along with what elements within sequences are missing (reaction shots and other general pick-ups)
2) after a rough assembly of what is there is prepared, then a creative team has to step in (director or writers or both) and determine scenarios that can be used to fill-in whats missing.
Can they use stock footage?
can they use out-takes from totally different scenes?
can they use footage from the theatrical cut?
can they use cgi to bridge differences?

I know Thau took all that into effect once he agreed to cut the new movie together. However, he also had a copy of Donner's shooting script from '77 for Superman II and most of Donner's cut is comprised of 70% new footage (which a small percentage was integrated in Lester's Superman II), while the remaining percentage is the screen test, unused footage from STM, etc.. Only a very small percentage of Lester's footage is used for what Donner didn't shoot, such as backgrounds and little things to maintain continuity. Most or all of Lester's slapstick humor will be cut, but there will be a new main titles sequence crediting Michael Thau and Stuart Baird as co-editors, because Baird was involved early on in the process before he was replaced by John Victor-Smith. (All of this info was obtained from Superman Cinema, a legit web site.)
Considering that Richard Donner did supervise the making of the film, I think he would have a say in how the audio was going to be for his cut of Superman II. But maybe because this was a new cut with mostly new footage, maybe that's why they're not touting it as a brand-new surround mix and the mix had to be done from scratch. (But it's probably good, considering that it is being released on HD-DVD and Blu-ray at the same time.)

 

[Dharmesh C]

Screening reports are coming in. Check out my website.

 

[TonyD]

dharmesh
is there something there now, i coudlnt find anything

 

[TheBat]

I saw the screening last night. It was such a different movie. I would highly recommending watching the theatre version of superman 2 before you watch this. this is like a whole new movie.. is the new version perfect? no.. but its much better then most people expected. the movie reminded me a bit of spidey 2.. in terms of pacing and focusing on disguise then the actual hero. It will take a few viewings to get everything. I think that will be the expereince for other people too. there is so much to take in on the first viewing. I did like how we see saw more of stuff like sets and etc.It felt more epic in that term. I was usrpise on how the fortress set was differnt then in the theatre version of superman 2. it was more of the superman the movie set. of course they filmed them back to back.
that is all for now.
will be back later in a day or so with my review.
Jacob

 

[Robert Anthony]

checked out the link on Dharmesh's boards--and got irritated. It was like Star Wars fandom all over again. The guy giving the most information has some valid crit, but he's mixed it in with some seriously fanboy shit. Comparing it to fan edits and such. I mean, there's a lot of valuable info, but he doesn't seem to take it as it's own thing, it's all to be weighed against fan edits and TV versions and what he was hoping he'd see instead of how it works as its own movie.
Apparently, though, the music editing in this version is NOT that good. Almost Star Wars Episode II-esque. I hope it's not that bad, but it seems that some hardcore score junkies are over there discussing it, so a lot of the nuance they hear regular viewers might not. But that, out of all the complaints, might be the one that worries me the most.
But I doubt it's gonna bug me all that much, because the Superman II score is so forgettable. I honestly can't pick a cue out of my head aside from the "Fortress of Solitude" cue that plays when Zod is clowning the president and screaming to KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!
...ZOD!
Also, HTF'ers, if you click that link, you'll see old friend Neil S. Bulk doing a Zod impersonation

 

[Mike_Richardson]

Apparently, though, the music editing in this version is NOT that good. Almost Star Wars Episode II-esque. I hope it's not that bad, but it seems that some hardcore score junkies are over there discussing it, so a lot of the nuance they hear regular viewers might not. But that, out of all the complaints, might be the one that worries me the most.

The music editing in the clip that was released of the villain fight was atrocious. If the whole movie has music that sloppily compiled, it will indeed be a problem.

 

[Larry Sutliff]

I'm gonna be looking at this as if it's a rough cut or workprint, so I'll try not to let the music edits bother me. I can't wait to see the Brando footage.

 

[TheBat]

its alot more complete movie then you think.. its a very differnt movie then the fan edits and stuff. I think that will surprise most people.
Jacob