Dolby Atmos in the Home Theater, AVRs, and Separate

Discussion in 'AV Receivers' started by JediFonger, Jun 23, 2014.

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  1. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    I've been doing this since VHS ruled the roost.

    I call my main theatre a 7.1 + height...that makes 9.1. But since height and width exist...I make the differentiation. Till Atmos...anybody not using a Yamaha and they had 11.1...that would make their theatre DTS Neo X.

    Now that IIz still exists and Atmos comes along...and we'll wait to see what DTS does as a salvo, I expect people to just say "I have a 13.1 in Atmos" or "I have a 9.1 in width" or "I have 11.1 in Presence"

    In this thread...and Dave in particular...5.1 + front Atmos still makes 7 speakers...7.1.
     
  2. DanH1972

    DanH1972 Second Unit

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    Though, Dolby is now making the distinction between mains, LFE channel, and overhead outputs. They're separating them out to make it easier.

    The only thing we don't know exactly is how the 24 mains are split out from the 24 + 10 overheads configuration of the full consumer Atmos enchilada. Dolby hasn't made the distinction of which of the 24 are subs or if its 34 outputs without even counting sub outs.

    There's so much more to learn about what the differences are between consumer Atmos and commercial Atmos and the very best way to configure our rooms (and which speakers are best).
     
  3. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    The only issue I have with the Atmos rollout is the call for in-ceiling speakers.

    Lots of companies don't have them...

    Ohm* is one of the best speaker brands there is. I'm waiting for a client I can try some out on with inverted speakers on the ceiling.

    I'm not doing in-ceiling...and will never do in-wall/ceiling. Mine will be normal speakers mounted, essentially, inverted.

    *Their Satellite 4 could be ceiling mounted
     
  4. DanH1972

    DanH1972 Second Unit

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    It's not so much in-ceilings as timbre matched speakers on the ceiling. You can utilize whichever style that best suits your tastes. This format is so new there hasn't been time for a lot of speaker manufacturers to create speakers that comply with Atmos specifications except in the commercial end of the spectrum. They move very slowly... far more slowly than electronics companies.

    Triad, a fantastic speaker company, will be one of the first to offer new Atmos friendly models at CEDIA in September.
     
  5. DaveF

    DaveF Moderator
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    Atmos speakers aren't discretely addressable? This is a modern version of Dolby Pro Logic?This is going to cause customer confusion. It think it's lingua franca that x.y now refers to the speaker count, regardless of whether they are strictly speaking discretely driven or full-range. 7.1 is seven speakers and a subwoofer. They can be satellites or full-range. Introducing a confusing idea of DD 5.1 is Atmos 7.1, or maybe it's the other way around of Atmos 5.1 is DD 5.1. This is going to make a hash of conversations. Hopefully Atmos has a description method that doesn't use implicit speaker counts.
     
  6. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    No Dave.An "Atmos enabled speaker" has two speaker inputs. The regular one for main channel. A second one for the connection of the Atmos channel. Meaning, it has a tweeter(and some, a midrange) facing up to bounce off the ceiling.Think Yamaha DSP to create fake surround sound that exists in the YSP and some new AVR (I mention that on the 377).
     
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  7. JediFonger

    JediFonger Producer

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    funny how we always thought the yammies were fluff. but they were right all along!
     
  8. DanH1972

    DanH1972 Second Unit

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    Actually no, Yamaha was doing something similar to Dolby ProLogic IIz. Matrix post processing to synthetically widen the soundfield. Object surround is discrete information.
     
  9. DaveF

    DaveF Moderator
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    This only raises more questions :)

    It's clear I've got a basic misunderstanding about what Atmos for home is. What I've read is Atmos, for theaters, is a processing tool that converts a 3D sound design into signals for a (large) number of discrete speakers in an auditorium. I presumed home Atmos was similar: a 3D sound design that in some fashion was decoded by a home AVR to drive a (large) set of discrete speakers.

    But I understand you as describing a system based around non-discrete, diffuse reflecting speakers added to a conventional Dolby-Digital 5.1 system. Rather than more precise sound-field reproduction through more discrete speakers, it sounds like home Atmos may be 5.1 + diffuse ambient sounds.

    Or maybe it's all of that. It's everything. Throw it a mish-mash of speakers, run Atmos calibration from your receiver, and it does the best it can. And if you give it Infinity+1 speakers, it gives you perfection.
     
  10. FoxyMulder

    FoxyMulder 映画ファン

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  11. DanH1972

    DanH1972 Second Unit

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    Then there's a 9.1.2 configuration with front wide side surrounds but only two ceiling surrounds due to processor and other hardware limitations.

    And then we jump all the way to the Trinnov Altitude processors that can handle many more speakers and configurations for major bucks.

    I think I would want at least a 9.1.4 Atmos renderer. One of the major brand pre-amps coming soon has 13.1 outputs, but no one knows if it can handle four top and front wides at the same time.
     
  12. andySu

    andySu Cinematographer

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    I see where this is all leading too, Home cinema ego. :P How many you can fit in and what SPL db they each reproduce.


    There are many ways of designing the room with clusters of loudspeakers at low cost.

    Anyone heard of eBaY its a place where you can spread out the cost of your budget steadily, without showing off you spent £500/$750 per pair of surrounds. You don't need the larger ones for cinema in the home, Its a smaller arena. not 1330 seats!

    My room is small/tiny (15x 12x x7.8") but its not impossible to go THE Fully Atmos Monty, with 64 or more? The more is mostly made up with the surrounds and most of those surrounds in a cinema have been there for years. They only stick in a few more of the same model further towards the screen and couple more towards the corners of the rear. Often the overhead would be of the same model to keep timber balance the same as close as possible. The ones on the rear wall are the same.

    Thou some of the newer JBL selected for Atmos and I'm surprised its not been THX certified? That is really neither here or there. I don't want those models on my ceiling they'll drop down lower than the present ones I have fitted up. Also the cost of those speakers would bust ones budget tenfold.

    All the speakers are pre-wired in a cinema then wired up with more amps in the booth.

    So all they need do is undo it and re-wire over the next few days and test it all out. (That's my guess and that's what I'd do).

    I'm happy with JBL control 1 for the surrounds for the size room and give satisfactory bass mid feel. I have two extra 12" bass mid filtered with a CP45 on its sub bass and with that active on film, gives a nice extra low end extension.

    I could in fact easily redo the present overhead control 5 x4 attached to the ceiling and redo with control 1, up to at least x8 or more. Depends on planing and spacing them out. Same with side wall. I have plenty enough for back wall. x4 but was thinking of putting in x2 more? x2 for each side wall at present.

    I tried one formula by just eyeing my present surrounds and spacing between each on the side wall and come up with x8 per side wall and x8 per each left/right overhead x16. Back wall x6. Stage channels x3. Subs x4. 45 speakers.

    I tried it again and used the tape measure.

    73 speakers. I think the cost of total will be OVERKILL :lol: not to mention speaker-cable and extra amps and EQ/delay/crossover control. Extremely expensive.

    I think I'll keep it to 45.

    Problem with Atmos only flaw is. No below stereo surround? I have below surround set-up here for use with some films to give it an exciting expansion surround. I need this Atmos with stereo-below-surround now to be delivered discretely with Atmos. I think they need to go back and re-think, Atmos. They need to re-channel the layout and share that in a cinema with speakers located underneath the fold-up seats.

    Also the stage channels. They need to be ether updated with at least 9 screen at the minimum. 15 at the most for five screen above/middle/below.

    Home
    There should be a upper three-screen
    Common middle three-screen
    And below bottom three-screen
    So all the above can match on screen images and be a bit exciting over what has been now practice for decades. It needs to evolve.

    A lot of films I watch and see where performers are on the screen and thinking how much better it would sound if voices or Foley footsteps and sound effects were to come from new locations behind the screen would be, a must listening for me. :P

    Scene from ALWAYS with the guy sat on the wing should have his, voice on the upper centre stage channel. The girl yelling up should have her, voice coming from ether left middle stage as it would fit the area of the screen and the loudspeakers located behind. Her, footsteps should sound on the below left stage channel. Makes sound sense now as that is more less how I hear the real world when walking around and listening to crowed's of people. I don't hear their footsteps 6 or 10 feet above my head.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    When walking to the plane footsteps should be moving form, below stage right across the screen,

    [​IMG]

    When she thumps the latch on the door to the airplane it should be heard on centre upper channel. Her foot steps should still be on below centre stage channel.

    [​IMG]

    Climbing into the plane. Sound should be positioned with below centre stage and centre middle stage channel with Foley sounds and atmosphere, plane engine noise in locations to the geometry of the plane and its surrounds closely.

    Home would need smaller speakers for 9 screen bookshelf maybe, depends on the room size, height, width? If too small a height then smaller bookshelf models would be sited. Not HUGE cinema pa speakers otherwise its mixing in other brand speakers will sound dreadful with tonal characteristic when playing pink noise from a three of matched speakers to the other groups that are mismatched.

    You got plan it. Not to extreme use common sense with large number of speakers as that is what Dolby Atmos, is trying to sell here.

    I've had more CB radios in the past Cobra 148 GTL-DX that had more channels than Atmos. 120 channels of low mid high CW/FM/AM/USB/LSB. Even one Snake with Low/Mid/High/Double High/Triple High that went partly into the Ham band. That's 200 channels. :P
     
  13. JediFonger

    JediFonger Producer

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    yes... but the thinking behind yammies was always that more physical speakers allowed for more fuller sound, even if it was all DSP. that is why i said yammies were right from the beginning. a lot of HT enthusiast usually write off DSP for all its worth. but that is why i said they were actually the ones that were on the right track. even if it was not discrete channel. the design thought process is the more channels you give it (including front height/width). all of those designs pre-dated DPLIIz.

    davef, the intention from Dolby is to remove surround sound design away from telling you how to setup your speakers at home. in theory, you could layout all your speakers in all the "wrong places" but with the proper system, Atmos will still give you the best surround sound experience. of course being HT enthusiasts we will always want the "optimal" placement.

    the reason i created this thread is that i see where the future of HT will be heading. the conept of left, right, center is probably going to go away in the next few generations. in the far future, AV components willl just have a # of channels. say 10, 15 20 channels or 2. you plug your speaker in every which way, even if your phase is incorrect, the software will correct it all for you using advanced 3D-spec'd microphones. once you do a audssey-like measurement, the hardware/software system will determine how large you room dimension is length x width x height then 'ping' where your spearkers are, then re-create your room inside the AV component. afterwards, no matter what you play, the system will scale any surround sound schema from mono, stereo all the way through Atmos/DTS's MDA equivalent.

    it's exciting times for sure!
    andySu
    i am not sure what your point is, but i think what you might be saying is that this is yet another novelty. rest assured, i do think this is a pretty revolutionary product.
     
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  14. DanH1972

    DanH1972 Second Unit

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    I just received some clarification over at AVS Forum not long ago and it seems as if you CANNOT just place your speakers willy-nilly and expect to have things re-arranged "automagically" with calibration. That was never a part of Atmos to begin with. You still have to place and aim your theater speakers to within a narrow specified parameter, give or take a few degrees. If you don't, Dolby will not "certify" a commercial theater chain's auditorium as Atmos compliant. It's like THX Certification, only it doesn't go into auditorium sound proofing and acoustic qualities.

    It works the same way in consumer Atmos products. It's just a stripped down version in terms of positional speaker metadata (34 rather than 64) and total amount of simultaneous objects (amount yet TBA).

    The object renderer will, however, properly expand the Atmos soundtrack to whatever amount of speakers you have plugged in to your system based on what the calibration mics pic up. It also sets proper delays based on calculated speaker distances from the MLP. It still expects that the speakers are where they're supposed to be in the first place.

    Sorry to disappoint.
     
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  15. JediFonger

    JediFonger Producer

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    you saying i have superceded atmos with one simple post on the intarweb? lolzi suspect that will be where we will head to in the future if not now.after that will be tng style holodeck.
     
  16. Dave Moritz

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    Just want to see what members are thinking about Dolby Atmos coming to home theaters via home theater receivers? What do those who have heard Dolby Atmos think of it compaired to the previous formats available in the theater, from Dolby Digital, DTS and SDDS? Do you think it will catch on or will Dolby Atmos be nothing more than a nitch format in the home?
     
  17. Sam Posten

    Sam Posten Moderator
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    I'm one of the biggest Atmos advocates at HTF and I am moderately intrigued about upgrading my home system to take advantage of Atmos. I'm worried about the costs of doing so and concerned that there will be a pittance of titles that take advantage of it in the near term. I'll be getting a demo soon. Stay tuned!
     
  18. DaveF

    DaveF Moderator
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    Thread merged with another one that was starting. I changed the title to something broader and pinned it to to foster continued Atmos AVR discussion.
     
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  19. DanH1972

    DanH1972 Second Unit

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    I've heard Atmos at the theater and it is a real game changer. Fantastic, phenomenal! Though, it depends a lot on the individual sound engineers and whether or not they used the format to its full potential just like with any other soundtrack from the beginning of talkies. Some are outstanding, others sound not much better than 7.1 tracks now. However, it won't be until CEDIA when I can demo the home version for myself. There have already been some members of AVS Forum who have personally been to demos already and they all say it is very impressive.

    It remains to be seen if the general public will be equally excited about Atmos. It will probably be relegated to movie enthusiasts who already keep tabs on the latest and greatest audio gear (as long as it pushes the boundaries forward)... like me! :D
     
  20. Dave Moritz

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    I wouldn't mind upgrading from my current Pioneer Elite SC-05 which I am very happy with so far to something newer that has 4K video switching and would be willing to try out Dolby Atmos at some point if finances ever bounce back. Am currently running a dedicated 7.1 system with the SC-05 and would have to buy more speakers and ceiling mount them if I ever got into Dolby Atmos. Is Dolby Atmos backward compatible with Dolby True HD?

    IMG_4530.JPG
    20121102_130326.jpg
     
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