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Discussion on the HTF article on studios dumbing down the DVD format (1 Viewer)

Ron-P

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What I do not understand is why studios don't put out DVDs with both WS and PnS on the same disk.
Toy Story 2 or Legally Blonde are perfect examples. They both contain a WS version and a PnS version. This would solve all the problems, it's so simple.
Peace Out~:D
 

Karl Englebright

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Even though we are certainly in the minority when it comes to caring about OAR, we can be a vocal minority. As Ron E pointed out, if so many people were so concerned about "filling their screens" they would not have made DVD as popular as it is today. I think we have to make as much noise as "the other" vocal minority that whines and complains about those "distracting black bars".

Although educating the public will go a long way towards them accepting OAR, it won't qwell the outspoken "anti-black bars" out there. That is why we have to strive to be more vocal and give the industry people the sense that they risk the ire of a very big, dedicated group of folks that care about watching their movies in their proper ratio.

I understand that this is a business like any other business, but like any other business, we need to remind them that risking the ire of loyal customers in NOT GOOD BUSINESS.
 

Jeremy Jones

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I think the time has come to stop catering to the ignorant. 16x9 televisions are coming and they will be the standard. All this wasting time on pan and scan crap for a few people who want their screens filled up is just stupid. Every title on DVD should be ANAMORPHIC widescreen ONLY! If people don't want the black bars, get VHS or wait a few years. Then, their new 16x9 set will be filled up with the widescreen picture. I think I'm going to start going to Wal-Mart and Blockbuster and the others and look for movies they only have in pan and scan and ask them if they have it in widescreen. When they tell me no, then I'll tell them no thanks, I only buy widescreen. If enough people did we'd be back to where we started; Widescreen only or at least both on the same disc. It's time people realized what Ron was talking about. DVD is a home theater format, not a home video format. There is a difference. We want the closest experience we can get to the original theatrical release.
 

Ron Shaw

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I agree that giving people a choice was not a good move. Let them adjust to OAR. I bet these same people who complain about 'those black bars' would be the first to complain if a movie was released to the theaters in P&S format. I really have a hard time trying to understand why anyone would prefer a P&S version of a movie. They CANT be that dense, can they? You want the whole picture? Then you dont want P&S!
 

Brian Harnish

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I agree with Ron's article 100%. If widescreen were to be forced onto the public, we would not be having such problems. There shouldn't even have to BE a discussion or war on this. Unfortunately, the more educated individuals always have to fight those who are morons. And it really pisses me off that the studios are catering to the MORONS.
In my collection of 168 DVDs, I only have ONE Pan & Scan disc. And that's Happy Gilmore (and I don't even watch it anymore on principle). Every other DVD in my collection is OAR (even if it was truly filmed in 1.33:1), and I plan on keeping it that way. This battle will be fought to the death of Pan & Scan if it has to be. I will not give up OAR for the few morons that have to ruin it for everyone else.
Down with Pan & Scan!!! :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:
 

TheLongshot

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I'm of mixed feelings about the article. On one hand, the handling of OAR lately is starting to get worse in the DVD market, and some sort of stand does need to be taken. On the other hand, I am one that does believe in choice, and while the word "idiots" are thrown out here for those who like P&S, I can understand why some people might prefer it. (for example, if they have a small TV set. Viewing a movie is going to be a compromise, no matter how they view it. It just depends what compromise they want.) P&S will ALWAYS exist. Maybe not always on DVD, but certainly on TV. HDTV will not change this. (Just ask the people watching HBO HD.)

Some say that they should go back to VHS. I don't know if you've noticed, but VHS is dying fairly quickly. The DVD sections are now much bigger in stores than the VHS sections. Rental stores are the only exception to this.

I agree with one of the posters above that the focus should be on the retailers, not the studios. They are the ones placing the orders for product.

As for the studios, the only thing I want from them is everything in at least OAR and if they do two releases, better mark which is which. People still get confused. Personally, I'd like to see just one release. (Someone asked why they do two different releases and why they both aren't on the same disc. There is such a thing as a bit budget. There is only so much you can fit on a disc.)

Jason
 

Robert George

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This issue is not as simple as offering the public a choice of widescreen or fullscreen. There are issues such as allocation of resources that will inevitably come into the decision making process. Remember, for the people making the DVDs (studios) and the people selling the DVDs (Walmart, etc.) this is an economic issue, not an artistic one. Dual format is simply not going to be economically feasible in all cases.

Of course the public should have a choice, but not a choice of how a film is presented. The choice comes at the checkout counter. You either buy, or you don't. If one wants a particular movie, then one should have to accept it in the proper form, even if that form does not match one's TV screen.
 

Jacques C

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Ron,
Quote:
The only reason pan-and-scan DVD transfers are outselling their widescreen counterparts is because the studios have offered the public a choice. If this choice had never been available, widescreen DVD titles would have continued to fly off dealer shelves in record-shattering numbers.
End Quote.
I liked much of the article, but this part is wrong and should be rethought and edited (not being mean, I just think your logic is flawed here). The reason Pan and Scan is outselling widescreen in due to retailers and rental units, *not* customer choice. Consider how much Blockbuster buys - all P&S. Walmart insists on P&S when available.
Frankly, simply the efforts of Hollywood Video and Blockbuster can be easily shown to skew P&S numbers. Consider between the two they have 10,000 stores (8,000 BB, 2000 HV). Along with the other assorted chains when each buys 35 titles for an opening release, you are talking half a million units - almost all of which are P&S.
No wonder they say P&S is selling better! Remove those rental numbers and you will see that widescreen sells more. It *is* actually what consumers want.
Jacques
 

Collin

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:) I'm all for OAR. I'm going to march right down to WalMart and talk to a manager. If we bother the Wal-Marts more than the 4:3 bunch maybe the tide will turn? It's worth a shot. I may have bought a 4:3 TV, but I did it because my family watches a lot of 4:3 broadcast. When we watch movies we are proud to watch the OAR and revel in our "little black bars" of courage.
 

Rich Malloy

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As a lot of us were urging last year, we should encourage the adoption of "pan and scan on the fly" for all DVDs.

The argument against, of course, is that this is really cropping and not true panning-and-scanning, but I don't believe the "fill my screen" crowd will care. I wonder if the studios have even considered this option?

At any rate, if Pan-and-Scan-on-the-fly was adopted as the standard format, then all that would be required is for the consumer to properly set up their DVD player (widescreen for us, pan and scan on the fly for anyone who wants it). A one-time fix good for all discs. Then consumers won't have to choose between two versions of the same film and the attendant confusion caused by this, and studios won't have to waste disc space by putting two transfers of the same film on a single disc.

And yet I rarely hear this option voiced, though it would address all our concerns and resolve them to our complete satisfaction. Have the studios addressed why this option hasn't been utilized?
 

Thomas Reagan

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As long as studios release both formats, I could care less about the J6P's. As DVD grows, I worry that the studios will decide that there isn't a large enough percentage of the market buying OAR, and thus decide to only release titles P/S exclusively.
Is this the ultimate direction we are going in? Where we were once the majority, are we fast becoming the minority? :angry:
Thos.
 

Jeff Kleist

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The real thing is not giving the PUBLIC a choice. It's giving the RETAILERS a choice. Wal-Mart and KMart will ALWAYS buy P&S instead of widescreen, totally skewing the figures.
 

Andrew_Sch

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The public should have a choice, as long as it's widescreen only.
Yeah, that sounds about right to me.:D Somebody on this forum said this before, and I'll say it again: There is no choice. OAR should be the ONLY option. Next time you're shopping for a CD, look around the aisle for a minute. Do you see a stereo version, a version with only the left stereo channel, and a version with only the right? Next time you're shopping for art, see how many paintings are also available with the sides lopped off. It's not done with other forms of art, so why allow it to be done to our most precious artform, movies?
It think the only way we can have a chance of winning this fight is through grassroots efforts, because we all know that the studios would rather listen to the millions who probably buy less than 10 DVD's a year, and want them all in P&S, then the couple thousand of us, who sometimes buy hundreds, even thousands a year, and DEMAND OAR. If we educate the tweeners and the ignorant, maybe, just maybe, we'll have a chance.
 

Karl Englebright

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Were are the people that actually MAKE the movies in all of this? I am assuming they care, but if you were to go by how vocal they are about it, you would think they don't care either!

I just don't see moviemakers putting up much of a fight on this. Could it be a case of biting the hand that feeds you?
 

John_VI

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Jason - I agree with you, but given the speed with which the electronics market moves, I also believe (as was stated earlier in this thread) that that will only happen in some type of HD format. As a technology, HD is still in it's infancy and the multiple competing formats have done nothing but confuse the average consumer. I consider myself to be a very educated consumer (technically speaking), but I, too, am confused about the current state of HD technology.

In my experience, Joe 6P wants to shove a disk in the player and watch a movie. Period. They don't give a shit about interlaced vs. progressive, DD vs. DTS, 480i vs. 720p vs. 1080i, line doubling, DLP vs. CRT vs. LCD, or any of the other intricacies that fuel the aficionado's lust for knowledge, gear and performance. And they damned sure don't give a shit about OAR vs. P&S. All that DVD means to them is that you don't have to rewind the damned thing before returning it to Blockbuster.

Until digital/HD television is the ONLY format available to consumers, and ALL TV's are manufactured in some type of widescreen format, and ALL over-the-air programming is in widescreen, then the average consumer won't give a shit about OAR. Until OAR is the ONLY choice available to them, we'll live at the mercy of dim-witted, short-sighted studios.

As enthusiasts we live at the tip of the sword. In the computer world that is usually a good thing, because the tip of the "technology sword" is always pointed UP - a fact that PC consumers have been taught from the very beginning of the PC era. "Computer enthusiasts" drive the market by demanding more and more performance with each successive generation. They demand more complex s/w which, in turn, demands more complex and higher-performing h/w. And staying ahead of the performance curve is what allows companies to make money.

However, in the Home Theater world, consumers have been taught (for the past 70 years) that it's just TV. Granted, it's a really cool TV, but TV nonetheless. As enthusiasts, we know differently - we have overcome decades of "TV thinking" to raise our expectations to a much higher level. Much to our dismay, though, we find that Home Theater is driven primarily by mass market consumer acceptance and demand, not by the "early-adopters" or "innovators" that drive the PC industry. Home Theater h/w that has been developed over the past 5-6 years to take advantage of the wonderfully capable and increasingly complex nature of the s/w format is now in danger of falling into disuse. And if s/w innovation stops, new h/w development will stagnate. We'll see fewer and fewer companies manufacturing equipment for home theater applications because the demand will dry up. Instead, we'll see TVs with integrated DVD players and simulated surround systems, all in one package, sold at Wal-Mart to "amazed" consumers.

So what will the enthusiasts be left with? As has been said before, we'll be desperately searching for the "next" format revolution. Hopefully, it will last a bit longer than this one.

For these reasons, Pan & Scan must die. Studios must make the choice to force the OAR formula down consumers throats. Audio and video equipment manufacturers should jump on this bandwagon, too. They stand to lose a lot more than the enthusiasts lose - they stand to lose their business. All except the DVD player manufacturers like Apex, who will gladly sell the uneducated consumer a $99 DVD player in Wal-Mart.

Pardon the rant, but like Ron I get passionate about this stuff. I've tried to not insult anyone, but if I did, I apologize.
 

Andrew_Sch

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I think that we need to get the influential people in the business who feel the same way as we do to join this fight. I'm talking about people like Roger Ebert and Martin Scorcesse(sp?), people who feel as passionately as we do about this issue. We need to contact them and tell them our feelings and ask if there is anything they would be willing to do to help us. I think a studio would be more inclined to listen to a petition headed by Leonard Maltin or Roger Ebert than they would to listen to one headed by Andrew Schaefer.
 

Rich Malloy

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Somebody on this forum said this before, and I'll say it again: There is no choice. OAR should be the ONLY option.
Well, I'll ask again - what's wrong with "Pan and Scan on the Fly", and why wouldn't this be an acceptable option?

As much as I'd like to adopt an "OAR-only" position, it's completely untenable if you have a taste for mainstream fare. Fortunately, the only pan-and-scanned title that I recall ever wanting (in OAR, naturally) is "Ponette". There may be one or two others, but generally speaking these discussions do not concern films I'm interested in. And those of you who like art films, serious films, "Criterion Collection" films, etc... you got nothing to worry about, generally speaking. The only alterations in aspect ratios for these will come from the director or DP's wishes... not those of the marketing team.

But for those of you who enjoy mainstream fare, you have a serious problem. The mainstream does not like "the black bars". Fret and complain and call for education campaigns or take-it-or-leave-it policies or whatever... you will lose on this one. Count on it.

It will get worse, not better.

So, I'll ask again, why not push for "pan and scan on the fly"? What have you got to lose?
 

Rain

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Unfortunately, Rich, it's not just mainstream film that is affected.
I'll once again use as an example Columbia/Tristar's release of 84 Charing Cross Road since it's a title I would have wanted otherwise. This one, decidedly not mainstream fare, is being released full frame only.
One must wonder what the motivations are here. J6P certainly isn't going to buy this one, so who will?
You are unfortunately making the mistake that many of us have made in the past: You are waiting for a title you are interested in to be affected.
If we do nothing now, one of these days some dumb studio exec is going to wonder, Gee, why aren't we selling more foreign films on DVD? Maybe we need to start releasing them in full frame only.
I suggest you join the fight now or be sorry later.
 

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