Digital Cameras: Suggestions? (1 Viewer)

[Jeff Perry]

Darnit, this topic has me changing my mind again. I had picked the Sony DSC-F828 (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscf828/) as a Christmas gift for my wife. She's always wanted to get serious-deep into photography. She has a nice 35mm but it's over 10 years old and she wants a digital to replace it.

So I'm thinking a digital SLR is the way to go. I know she'd love to buy different lenses, etc, and she really enjoys manually focusing and adjusting everything, even though it drives me insane (perhaps that's why she enjoys it)... so maybe the DSC-F828 is not the right camera?

What should I be looking at for someone like her? I know "tech". I don't know photography.

Edit: Just checked the review of the Digital Rebel. It leaves much to be desired over the F828. Lower resolution, only USB 1.1, less features... Can someone who understands photography explain the difference between the two cameras in terms of items a photographer would care about?

 

[Dan D.]

Jeff, the most important thing any serious photgrapher will care about is lenses. With film cameras, the body is essentially a box to hold film. Yes there's metering, autofocus and drive speed, but the real determination of photo quality is the lens (assuming the skill of the photographer is held constant). Granted, it's a little more complicated with a digital camera, but I'll get to this later.

The F828 is an outstanding camera. Even as a Canon film SLR and a Canon G1 digital camera owner, I found myself giving it some serious consideration when it was introduced... until about 3 days later when Canon brought out the Digital Rebel. The Zeiss-designed (though not Zeiss-maunfactured) lens is one of the best built-in lenses on a digital camera, with an impressive 10x magnification. Problem is, that's all you get. There may be teleconvertors available to give you wider angles or more zoom, but then your quality is going to suffer.

With the Canon series of lenses, you have access to a ton of variety and exceptional quality, from 14mm fisheyes to 600mm telephotos and beyond. You have the ability to use Canon's absolutely incredible Image Stabilization lenses which reduce and/or eliminate hand shake. You also have access to the professional "L" series lenses which are about the best quality on the market. Then there are all the specialty lenses, super-fast low f-stop lenses, tilt-shifts, true macro leneses for close-up work, etc. Plus, there are many third-party options that are both decent quality and a good value. Best of all, should your wife get more serious about photography and want to upgrade, the lenses can be transfered from camera to camera.

Back to the film/digital camera body issue. As you point out, the F828 has a higher resolution than the Digital Rebel. Resolution certainly is important, but you have a few things to consider here. First, you're not comparing apples to apples here. The 8MP sensor in the F828 is a CCD, but the 6.3MP sensor in the Canon is a CMOS. This is Canon's 4th CMOS camera and the sensor has a lot of fans. Many think it produces superior colors and grain to CCDs. Next, much of your quality is still going to be determined by the lens. Put a better quality lens on the Canon than the F828 has, and all the F828 will give you is a lesser image at higher resolution. I got my Canon G1 at the same time a friend got his Canon D30 SLR. Mine had a 3.3MP CCD and his had a 3.0MP CMOS (Canon's first). When we took the same photo for comparison, I through my quite respectible built-in lens and he with one of his "L" series lenses, the difference was incredible... mine looked great, but next to his, it looked like crap. Lastly, the difference between 8MP and 6.3MP isn't going to get you much. 6.3MP will get you a good quality 11x17" print. You have to ask yourself, "How many 11x17" prints am I really going to make?" What are you going to do with lots of 11x17" prints? Do you have the capability to make them? You get a little more leeway for cropping with the 8MP, but with a little Photoshop practice, you won't need it.

Right now, Canon is on top of the digital SLR world (OK, simmer down you Nikon fans, the D2H is sweet if you can spare the price of a good used car). The Digital Rebel is nearly the same camera as Canon's 10D, which was the best DSLR for the money, until the Rebel came out for $600 less. Trust me, as a photographer, it leaves little to be desired. If I didn't need the ruggedness of the 10D's magnesium body (and I still might not - can it be worth $600?), I'd buy one tomorrow.

As for the other features, I'd have to address those specifically. The F828 will have it's strengths, but many of those may indeed be "tech" and not "photography". As for USB 1.1, you're better off with a card reader anyway wich are available for USB 2.0 and FireWire. Even when I travel, I still take my card reader.

So, there's some stuff to think about. If you're wife is looking to get serious about photography, get her a photography-oriented camera. The F828 might be packed with a few more bells and whistles, but they're not what photography is about. If you want some fun features (and sure, I use the movie feature on my G1 occasionally), a simple all-in-one package and good quality, go with the F828. If you want the flexibility to seriously explore photography as an art and a hobby, you are much better off with an SLR.

 

[Keith Mickunas]

and I still might not - can it be worth $600?

There are a handful of other features in that $600, but it's hard to say if they justify the increase. The customize functions and higher burst rate can be handy. And that metal body does feel nice in your hands, although I haven't held a rebel yet to compare.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

I shoot Nikon 950 digital, Pentax 35mm SLR, and Olympus 35mm p&s cameras for size and portability.

My next digital camera will definitely the Digital Rebel SLR. A shame that the monstrous demand will likely keep prices high through spring.

 

[Max Leung]

Another thing to consider about the 8MP CCD in the Sony F828 versus the 6.3MP CMOS sensor in the Canon EOS 300D (aka Digital Rebel) is the sensor noise. The Rebel's CMOS sensor is fairly large, which has the advantage of low noise (grain). Since no one has released a review of the Sony F828, we don't know how much noise you'll get from its very small CCD sensor. The smaller the sensor, the more noise you get.

On the Digital Rebel, there is virtually no noise up to ISO 400, whereas I am 100% certain that the Sony will have tons of grain and artifacts at the same ISO.

ISO 1600 on my Rebel is the same as ISO 400 on my G3. It is quite amazing how smooth the image is from the Rebel.

Resolution isn't everything...

With that said, both cameras are very noise, and more than most people need, unless you're into serious photography. If you're really into photography...get both! The Sony should be excellent for IR photos (film and digital SLRs tend to be very poor for IR photography because of IR loss from the lens and/or mirror), the Rebel would be excellent if you're into buying a system of lenses.

Digital Rebel = buying into a system. Sony = IR photos, general learning, all-in-one camera.

 

[Dan D.]

Keith, the magnesium body, 3200 ISO and the pentaprism viewfinder versus the Rebel's pentamirror were what was selling me on the 10D over the Rebel. I held the Rebel for the first time last Friday an I must say I was impressed. It seems more solid than the Rebel 2000 and even Elan 7 bodies. So now I'm wondering, can I live with a slightly dimmer viewfinder and without 3200 ISO? That's the $600 question.

 

[Max Leung]

Dan, from reading the dpreview.com forums, ISO 3200 on the 10D is really just ISO 1600 taken from the sensor, and amplified by the firmware. On the Rebel, all you need to do is shoot in RAW mode at ISO 1600, and apply one stop of exposure compensation on your PC when processing the RAW file and you're done. Results should be identical to ISO 3200 on the 10D.

What you're really missing on the Rebel, when compared to the 10D is FEC (Flash Exposure Compensation) and ability to switch to AI Servo (continuous auto focus) in all modes.

FEC has been the deal-killer for many people who skipped the Rebel and got the 10D. Flash underexposure is the number one complaint against the Rebel, and has pissed some people off. I work around the lack of FEC by using Levels or Curves in Photoshop, or shoot in RAW and apply +2/3 EV to compensate. Or I make sure to FEL (Flash Exposure Lock) on a dark object before taking a picture with flash.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Max,

I'm in the dark on the FEC, but I'm just starting to learn about the Rebel. Is there any chance they'll be able to address it via firmware?

 

[Dan D.]

Max, I'm beginning to doubt the value of the 3200 ISO setting too. I always suspected that it would be too noisy for any serious application anyway, even with the good sensor.

As for the FEC, I hardly ever use flash. Most of my subjects tend to be outdoor and in natural light. Occasionally I'll use a flash for fill, but that's pretty rare. And of course, there's always Photoshop.

Since I'm going to be pretty busy through the end of the year and won't have much opportunity to do photography, I think I'm going to wait and see if anything happens to the price of the 10D. Even at $1,500 it's a good value, but it's still a big price gap to the Rebel. Plus, Canon may want to upgrade it to support the EF-S lenses even though there's only one consumer-level option available for that system right now.

 

[Max Leung]

Michael, it is highly unlikely (read: zero chance) that they will add FEC to the Digital Rebel. None of the film Rebels had FEC.

The best workaround is to buy a Canon 550EX flash ($350 US) or the Sigma 500 DG Super flash ($180 US), both of which have FEC and billions of other features. Of course, now you're approaching the price of a 10D! To be fair, the 10D doesn't come with a lens like the Digital Rebel bundled with the kit lens (not a bad lens at all when stopped down to F8).

I'm in the dark on the FEC

Good choice of words!

FEC allows you to control the power of the flash. You can't to that with the Rebel unless you get an external flash that lets you set it independantly, like the ones I listed above.

I use photoshop to fix my underexposed flash pics.

This is less of a problem on the other point-and-shoot cameras...you can pretty much snap off pictures will-nilly and most will turn out pretty good on those cams.

 

[Max Leung]

Oh BTW, the Digital Rebel's USB transfer speed is HORRID. HORRID! Using the USB-to-camera cable, it took me nearly an hour to transfer 512 megs of pictures onto my PC. I think the transfer speed is around 100Kbytes/sec.

Needless to say, I bought a Lexar 7-in-1 USB2 flash reader, and now the same pictures would take 5 minutes to download.

 

[Keith Mickunas]

Max, in the thread on microdrives and CF cards I posted my results of a simple test with USB 2.0 vs 1.1 readers. I only did the camera once, and found it painful. With my 2.0 reader I downloaded 450MB in about 2.5 minutes, with the 1.1 reader on a 1.1 port I did a partial download and I estimate it'd take 8.5 minutes. A good 2.0 reader makes a big difference.

Heck, card readers are cheap and their small. It doesn't really take any more space in your bag to carry the card reader instead of the cable. Plus most card readers don't require drivers on newer windows PCs. So to those concerned about any camera they're interested in that is only USB 1.1 capable, don't worry about it. Just buy a reader and your problems are solved.

 

[Jeff Perry]

Boy, this is getting to be a major decision.

From what I've read, there are "issues" with using the various lenses on the Digital Rebel. Something about the difference between 35mm and digital and the pictures come out differently?

Also, what do lenses cost, on average? I'd hate to get her into a hobby that's going to cost $400 every time she wants to shoot something different. If it's too spendy, she might be better off with the F828...

Lastly, I don't know whether she wants to spend the time to learn all of the various options and settings. She took some photography classes in college, but it's been awhile... I'm going to have to think of a way to tactfully inquire about her position on this matter, without letting on that I'm getting her one for Christmas.

 

[Max Leung]

Hey Keith! I think I just read that article of yours an hour ago. Completely agree!

Jeff, the issues you're hearing about is not just the Digital Rebel, but the Canon 10D,D30, D60, and any other digital SLR with a sensor smaller than standard full-frame (35mm).

The sensor on the Digital Rebel and 10D is roughly 60% the size of a 35mm frame, so in essence you're getting a 1.6x FOV "crop". You're basically getting a 1.6x zoom for "free". Hence, if you get a 50mm/F1.8 prime lens ($70 US, AWESOME lens), it is equivalent to mounting an 80mm lens on a regular film SLR camera.

The kit lens that comes bundled with the DRebel is an 18-55mm zoom, equivalent to a 29-88mm zoom lens on a film camera. I'd like to get a 15mm fish eye lens for wideangle shots, but damn that's $500!

As for lenses...they all vary depending on how much quality you want. The coveted Canon "L" series lenses are considered the best money can buy...typically the price of a small car for the best telephoto primes. The lower-end lenses typically fall in the $200-400 range.

It's a huge subject...prepare to spend many hours on the Canon SLR Lens forum at dpreview to wrap your head around all the options!

And yes, it WILL be expensive. This is what I have so far:

Bundled kit lens: EF-S 18-55mm. Not a bad lens, but not as good as most of the higher-end point-and-shoot cams, which work better in low-light. I expect to use this for wide-angle (landscape) work.

Canon EF 50mm/F1.8 Mk2 lens (superb for low-light without flash photos...at $70 is a STEAL. One of the best lenses out there and it's cheap!). Amazingly sharp, and easy to take candids because you won't need a flash.

Canon EF 28-135IS ($400 US street). A very good walk-around lens. Has image stabilization, so you can take very sharp pictures at only 1/15th second shutter speeds even if you have the shakes! Obviously only good for correcting against body tremors, not fast-moving objects. A highly recommended lens for "beginning" SLR users.

Maybe next year I'll get a Canon 75-300mm IS lens. Or maybe that cool Sigma 50-500mm people are raving about (80mm-800mm effective length on a digital rebel!) *drool* Just need the cash! $$$

Oh yes, and you need to buy a UV/Haze filter for each lens you buy.

You think home theater is expensive?

 

[Max Leung]

BTW, Jeff, if you can hold out, wait for the F828 reviews to come in. It should be a great camera just like the F717.

Maybe you can get an F717 or F828 now, and get a digital SLR next year when you and your wife are comfortable with your technique (and the budget!)?

 

[Keith Mickunas]

The Canon EF 28-135IS is the lens I got. I bought it through one of Amazon's partners for $400. You can also get 1.4x and 2x extenders for most SLRs, which is what I plan to do. They'll affect image quality a bit, but a 2x extender will get me to a 400mm effective zoom. Then if I just pick up a single wide angle lens I'll be set for a while.

It is an expensive hobby. Take a look at B & H to get some ideas. Just be sure an look at other brands of lenses that are compatible with Canon EF lenses, that can help you save some money. You can probably find recommendations for various lenses at DPReview and other sites.

Maybe you can get an F717 or F828 now, and get a digital SLR next year

I'd recommend something different just because of the cost. Perhaps buy a good camera in the $500 range. That way if you decide on an SLR in the near future you won't feel like you've wasted tons on the other camera. Plus the cheaper cameras are more compact. Those Sonys look pretty big, and are going to be as much trouble to lug around as an SLR. Buying a cheaper camera now means you'll be getting a smaller camera, and even after you have the SLR you'll find that useful. I'm considering buying one of the smaller Canons next year just for snapshots as the 10D is a bit of a load. That's just my $0.02.

 

[Jeff Perry]

Thanks again for all of your recommendations.

Here's the verdict: I'm buying a digital SLR for her. Probably the 300D. I weaved a web of lies and deceit last night about a "co-worker" who wanted a "nice 35mm" and whether she thought he should buy a normal camera, or an SLR. Her response: "Well, if he wants a stupid camera, then non-SLR is the way to go. If he actually cares about his pictures, then he should get one like mine." Later in the evening, I caught her scouring eBay for lenses for her old Pentax. Girl's got photography in her blood, that's for sure.

So, she's getting a 300D for Christmas. I'm going to get the kit with the basic lens, but I need advice on accessories and such. I want:

1. Two more batteries.

2. A USB 2.0 compactflash reader. Can anyone recommend a good one? The USB 1.1 in the camera will be way too slow.

3. An extra lens. Her Pentax doesn't have a zoom lens, and that's what she wants. So I want to get her a nice, powerful zoom lens. Nothing too cheap, help me pick out a good one with a powerful zoom for my budding amateur photographer. I'll spend whatever I need to. I especially need recommendations here, as I know nothing about camera lenses. Which one should I buy, and where can I buy it?

Also, can someone explain the differences between zoom and telephoto? I always thought they were the same, but lens offerings from Canon indicate otherwise.

Optionally, should I get the camera without the lens, and then buy her two lenses instead? It seems redundant to have two zoom lenses, and I'm thinking if she has a nice powerful zoom, the one that came with the camera won't be used. Is this line of thinking correct? If so, can you recommend two great lenses that would get her started (one nice zoom lens, and something else)?

4. 1GB CF card.

5. Camera bag. I'm going to stick some cash in her stocking and let her go shopping for this on her own. Kind of an after-Christmas treat.

Is there anything else I'm missing?

One last thing: How is the plastic body on the 300D? I almost wouldn't mind spending the extra $600 on the 10D since it's a metal body and seems to have many more features. Would this be wise? Is it worth the extra money? Or would I be better off saving it and letting her buy more lenses and accessories for the 300D?

Sorry this is so long, and I didn't mean to hijack your thread, Angelo. I just want to get this right for her.

 

[Keith Mickunas]

I have to recommend the lens I already mentioned, it's pretty nice. The image stabalizer is great.

Don't worry about the batteries. I shot 160 photos at my friends wedding, all in RAW format, many with flash, and had the camera just sitting for a couple weeks and yesterday I was playing with it and shot a bunch more and played with the flash and such and it still had a bit of a charge. The battery lasts a long time. One extra battery might be ok, but you won't need two, plus if you only got 1GB of storage you'll run out of storage way before power. If you want the extra battery check out B&H Photo, they have some third-party batteries that claim longer life and are cheaper than Canon.

As for the card, check the link I provided here or in the other thread for the CF card database. If you don't think the speed is that important based on what other people mentioned, buy just about anything. Sandisk, Lexan, etc. There's lots of options. I'd still recommend 2 512MB cards over 1 1GB, sometimes it might be convenient. But it's no biggie either way.

Zoom vs. Telephoto: Telephoto means it's long range, and could also apply to a fixed lens, say a 400mm or 600mm. Zoom would imply that it covers a range, like the basic lens or my 28-135. In short, Zoom means the lens is adjustable, Telephoto means it's long range. If you want two lenses, get the kit, then get another lens whose range overlaps the basic lens.

Another thing, 50mm is considered standard, as it's most similar to our field of view. Anything smaller than a 50mm is usually considered wide-angle or fish-eye in some cases. Anything greater than 50mm would be telephoto.

Others have commented on the plastic body and said it's nice. Go to some camera stores and ask to hold them. It may be hard to find them, but I heard even CompUSA is carrying the Digital Rebel.

 

[Matt Stryker]

Jeff- You may also want to see if Best Buy does another "Preferred Customer" Sale. My friend used his 10% coupon on the Digital Rebel, knocking the price of the body+lens kit down to $900.

I'd second the 2 512MB cards instead of the 1GB. I've had CF cards go bad before, and you shouldn't be sacrificing too much convienence by having 2 that size.

Might look into a hard case for the body, instead of just a bag. That and a subscription to a nice photo mag...and maybe a bigger hard drive on the computer or some blank CDs. Digital cameras are great, but you end up with tons of photos, since the cost of each shot is practically nil.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

If you want the extra battery check out B&H Photo, they have some third-party batteries that claim longer life and are cheaper than Canon.

A couple of other sites that sell third-party batteries for a reasonable price are www.batterybarn.com and www.ebatts.com . I have ordered from both sites for my Canon Powershot and Sony MiniDV camcorder. They also sell multi-battery rapid chargers. I was able to get a single charger to handle both the camcorder and digital camera batteries.