Def Tech Supercube Reference vs. SVS PB2+

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Parker Bailey, Dec 29, 2003.

  1. Parker Bailey

    Parker Bailey Auditioning

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    I think these are both great subs, although the Def Tech is about $500 more. I still want to know how you all think the PB2+ stacks up against it. IMO I would take the SVS anyday.
     
  2. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    The Def Tech SCI and SCII faired pretty badly in Nousaine's standardized testing.

    http://members.cox.net/frankcarter/...0Sub%20Data.htm

    Def Tech SC I – 103dB / 25hz~78dB
    Def Tech SC II – 96.9dB / 25hz~85dB

    These are THD-limited SPLs in Nousaine's test room. They are not the absolute maximum SPL the subs can generate. See the website for details on how the "Ace Of Bass" conducts sub testing.

    If the performance of the DT SC I and II is indicative of the entire product line, I think many enthusiasts will be suspicious of the DT SCR's ability to run with the big dogs until they see some hard numbers on distortion limited output, particularly in the 15-30 Hz region.

    With a 14" long throw woofer and 2 PRs and tons of amp power, I have no doubt it can generate prodigious output levels. But how cleanly is another story entirely, and THD can only be measured with test gear, not by subjective listening tests. High THD actually sounds pleasing to certain individuals, who often characterize it as a very "full" sound.

    My own THD test numbers on the PB2+ are not directly comparable to Nousaine's because of the differences in our test gear, room size, and methodology. As an aside, anyone who compares THD numbers generated by different testers using different test rigs under different conditions is playing an extrapolation guessing game at best. Sure, if both testers did ground plane at 2 meters (for example), the results "should" be similar, but could still easily vary a few percent either way just based on differences between the mics, software, and processing equipment.

    With that said, I can tell you I've measured some very low THD numbers from the SVS PB2+ in-room @ 25 Hz @ 105 dB @ 10 feet from the sub. I could have easily pushed it higher since THD was still very low at that point, but everything in the house was rattling. :b

    Under the same Nousaine testing, the old SVS 20-39 CS with the original (non-ISD) driver and 190 watt Fidek amp hit 106 dB at 25 Hz before THD hit 10%. A conservative estimate would be to add 15 dB to that number for the PB2+ which uses two far superior dB-12 Plus drivers and a 900 watt amp.

    Since the dB scale is log10, the difference between say 80 dB and 120 dB (as a THD limited SPL) is HUGE. It would take MANY Supercube I or II stacked in one corner to even approach the clean low frequency output capabilities of a single PB2+.

    Regards,

    Ed
     
  3. Ken Smith

    Ken Smith Stunt Coordinator

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    ED,
    You keep commenting on the SC I and II. The subject is the Reference which is the superior sub.

    Parker,
    Don't forget that the SVS needs it's own amp (extra cost) and the Def. Tech has an 1800 watt amp built in.
     
  4. WayneO

    WayneO Supporting Actor

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    PB2+ has a 900W amp.
     
  5. Ken Smith

    Ken Smith Stunt Coordinator

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    Wayne,
    Thanks for the info. I stand corrected. I thought all SVS subs needed an outboard amp.
    D.T. still has the larger amp though.
     
  6. WayneO

    WayneO Supporting Actor

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    The DT has a bigger amp, but a much smaller enclosure, so it has to work harder, doesn't mean it has an advantage just because of raw power...........
     
  7. Jesse Sharrow

    Jesse Sharrow Supporting Actor

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    Do you guys think the deftech would be worth it if you could get 75% off retail? Honestly? [​IMG]
     
  8. WayneO

    WayneO Supporting Actor

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    Hell yeah, then I'd sell it for almost retail and get an SVS........[​IMG]
     
  9. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    Hi Ken:

    I realize that, but it's all we have to go on regarding THD data from the SC line-up. I do qualify the response by stating "if" the performance of the DT SCI/II is indicative of the entire SC line, then I think many will wait for hard numbers on the SC Reference before purchasing.

    DT does state the SC Ref is equal to four Supercube I in terms of output and performance. If you wanted to try and extrapolate, you might add 9-12 dB to the SC I's performance and be in the ball park? That would get you to around 90-95 dB as a 10% THD limited output.

    If a particular individual doesn't care about harmonic distortion per se (it doesn't sound that objectionable to certain people), then the high output from the DT SCR could be a good choice for him/her.
     
  10. Dave Shepard

    Dave Shepard Agent

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    I along with Ed have the PB2+ and I can tell you that I've listened to quite a few before I setteled on this one. It is really that good and clean. You really get more then you pay for with SVS. When it comes to exact numbers Ed has that know-how and test hardware to backup the claims. What I can tell you is when I auditioned the others like M&K, Velo, Klip etc. this will with out a doubt crush-em. With all the rave reviews and recomendations to get a SVS did you really expect this to be any differant [​IMG] .

    Dave
     
  11. Robert Cowan

    Robert Cowan Supporting Actor

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    hehe, i got my deftech for 70% off retail ($510), and it is worth every penny [​IMG]

    do not (repeat, DO NOT) compare the deftech I or II to the reference). they are VERY different.
     
  12. Eric Eash

    Eric Eash Second Unit

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    i don't think very many subs in the same price range can compete with a direct-to-consumer company such as SVS, Acoustic-Visions, Adire, Stryke, HSU. When you factor in all the advertising, store mark up, it makes that $1500 subwoofer worth about what robert paid for it, which i think would be a good deal if it was new. not saying all retail products are marked up 200%, just saying that the companies that aren't retail aren't marked up at all. but i think with Axiom, who are an internet direct company, there is a slight mark up to compensate for so called free shipping. bottom line is i think you'd get more out of an SVS than the def tech. i wish TN would test all SVS subs as well as some common diy subs.

    just my .02,

    eric
     
  13. Mike Gl

    Mike Gl Stunt Coordinator

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    Ken,

    While I don't have the PB2+ sub, my home theater system includes dual SVS 20-39 CS+ driven by a Samson S1000 amplifier. I also have an Infinity HPS1000 sub in the same room, but it was not on when my Radio Shack meter measured a 115 dB peak. The other speakers in my 7.1 system are Definitive Technology.


    Mike
     
  14. Robert_Gaither

    Robert_Gaither Screenwriter

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    The reason we will never see such a thing is that simply most manufacturer's know approximately what their product will do, they will see if the reviewer posted any numbers for a product of similar price or similar market segment, and it would be plain stupid from a marketing perspective (a SVS does x db at 20 hz for $599, and my product does x -15 db at $999 would mean bankrupcy if I let it get reviewed under the same testing condition by the same reviewer!).
     
  15. David*RT

    David*RT Stunt Coordinator

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    It has already been reported in "DVD Etc" magazine that the Supercube Reference received a 99/100 rating.

    Following on the heels of that report, "Perfect Vision" magazine just did a review on the Deftech Supercube Reference sub (May/June 2004), calling it one of the "fastest cleanest, most forceful low bass they've ever heard."

    They did a CHART comparing several reference subs in many categories. Looks like the Supercube Reference is the real deal:

    MFGR & Model/Bass Extension/Tonality/Features & Connectivity/Build Quality/Value


    Deftech Supercube Reference($1699)......5/5/5/4/5
    Audio Physic Minos($6995)................5/5/5/5/4
    REL Stadium 3($2995)....................5/5/2/5/4
    Martin Logan Depth($1795)...............4/5/5/5/5
    MartinLogan Descent($2795).............4/5/5/5/4
    PSB Subsonic 10($2499)...................4/5/4/5/4
    Revel B15($2995)............................4/5/5/4/4
    Velodyne HGS-12X($1699)................4/5/3/4/3
    Aerial Acoustics SW12($4500)...........4/4/5/5/2
    James EMB1000($1500)....................4/4/4/4/5
    Deftech Supercube 1($1199).............4/4/5/4/4
    B&W ASW-750($1600)......................4/3/4/4/3

    The list in the magazine is more extensive than this with more ratings of cheaper, lesser perfoming subs. But the ones of note in the chart are listed above.

    Quotes from the page-long review of the Supercube Reference:




    .......It seems that someone should do a shoot-out between a top-line SVS sub and this Deftech unit. It seems to be a very compelling unit with the raves it's getting in the press....
     
  16. Craig Chase

    Craig Chase Gear Guru
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    David, I have that issue ... and the guy who wrote it really needs to learn a bit about speaker design. He states the 100 Hz crossover will keep the driver AND passive radiators from working higher than they should.

    IF the passive radiators are working higher than 35 Hz at any time, you have a serious design problem.

    I would be hesitant in deciding that ANYONE making a statement like that (that a 100 Hz crossover will keep the PR's from working too high) is a reviewer whose words would get me to spend $1699.
     
  17. George_W_K

    George_W_K Screenwriter

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    I'd be interested in a comparison of these two subs. I'd really be interested in the dBs that the Def Tech puts out below 20 Hz. Just for curiosity's sake.
     
  18. RussD

    RussD Agent

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    craig, chris martens and neil gader are both well respected reviewers, as are their editors robert harley and jonathan valin. as the article states, they live with these products for weeks to obtain a true performance rating. the subs in this article are for the most part held in high regard in the audiophile community. i believe the numbers speak for themselves.
     
  19. Craig Chase

    Craig Chase Gear Guru
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    Russ... A couple of questions...

    1. What numbers ?
    2. What is the function of a passive radiator? (I have auditioned the SC REF, by the way)
     
  20. RussD

    RussD Agent

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    the "numbers" are listed in the comparison chart in the perfect vision article and reprinted by david in his post. while an avid enthusiast, far be it from me to profess any expertise in speaker design. my understanding being limited to a passive radiator being a design choice, sealed or vented enclosure.
     

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