deep space 9 question ? (1 Viewer)

[jimmyjet]

of course, i am sure the federation never implemented any spies or covert action towards the romulons, the klingons, etc., when they were concerned about their well-being ?

but then again, it was okay for the federation to betray its possible enemies.

but that terrible eddington, who betrayed sisko, must be punished by destroying a complete planet !!!!!

you need to remove yourself from being on a side. and view the exact situation for what it is.

i will say once again - the maquis were doing what any of the rest of us would do, if our complete way of life was being taken away from us - FIGHT !!!

 

[schan1269]

Gee...never heard the phrase..."There really is no dignity in dying for a cause. Death is death."

 

[jimmyjet]

also, you say sisko could not have possibly known that cardassia would turn against the federation. is that some sort of excuse ??

let's say i butt into a fight between you and your enemy, by helping out your enemy. and it ends up blowing up in my face.

perhaps i should not have butted in, the first place ?

perhaps i should have realized that you knew your enemy a heckuva lot better than i did.

while the federation did not okay sisko's little vendetta, they would eventually find out.

so as long as sisko is present on ds9, the federation okayed his vendetta.

you can rationalize for a month of sundays, and you wont win this one - sisko and the feds are DEAD WRONG.

and that may just be actually how they could end up.

for gosh sake, the cardassians are known to be deceitful and good liars. and if sisko had any doubts, he had garak on the station, who never revealed much of the truth to anyone.

and so becoming bedfellows with these guys, blew up in their face.

and only the maquis were smart enough to realize it !!!

at least the klingon truce has some merit.

while the klingons are one-dimensional war-like people, at least they are fairly trustworthy.

when they break a treaty, they dont do so by stabbing you in the back.

sisko isnt anywhere near as important as he thinks he is - by gosh, betray the mighty sisko, and the walls of jericho are gonna fall !!

his actions are so far out of line, that there is no line at all.

 

[jimmyjet]

the doctor is back !!

along with julian and miles, this show had great banter amongst them.

(doctor bashir, i presume ?)

picardo was actually playing lewis zimmerman, the creator of the emh.

all 3 are darn good actors

 

[jimmyjet]

the doctor is back !!

along with julian and miles, this show had great banter amongst them.

(doctor bashir, i presume ?)

picardo was actually playing lewis zimmerman, the creator of the emh.

all 3 are darn good actors

 

[FoxyMulder]

So you have a government (Federation) signing a treaty with another government (Cardassians) to keep a very fragile peace. (See the TNG episode "The Wounded" and the "Chain of Command" two parter.) They traded land/planets. They gave their people time and resources to resettle. Those people didn't and chose to become terrorists.

Depending on your point of view this but some might call them freedom fighters and not terrorists.

 

[Sam Favate]

In Purgatory's Shadow/ By Inferno's Light is my favorite part of the entire series. These are five-star episodes in a series that had a bunch of them. The show was never better than it was here.

Man, this thread has me anxious for DS9 on blu-ray.

 

[Jason_V]

okay, from the wiki

According to the fictional storyline of the Star Trek universe, the Maquis were formed in the 24th Century after a peace treaty was enacted between the United Federation of Planets and the Cardassian Union, redesignating the demilitarized zone between the two powers, which resulted in the Federation ceding several of their colony worlds to the Cardassians. Although the colonists were offered free relocation to elsewhere in Federation territory, some insisted on remaining on the ceded worlds, effectively becoming Cardassian Union citizens. Some of these colonists subsequently formed the Maquis to protect themselves from Cardassian aggression, although they received no official support from the Federation, who feared breaking the peace treaty with the Cardassians, which would lead to war.

well, the aggressors were definitely the cardassians. this is who the maquis were trying to protect themselves from.

i cede the point of them being federation colonies.

but they were traded to the cardassians, so to speak.

and your only statement is that they had the freedom to leave ?

how would you like it if everyone here on earth was given the freedom to leave, or be part of the borg empire ?

Jimmy...this was the entire point of the two part "The Maquis" storyline. Cal Hudson "knew" the Cardassians were running weapons and arming their people in the DMZ. He was tired of no action so the Maquis took matters into their own hands even though it was against the law. Cal and the Maquis were right in the arming of colonists and perhaps the persecution of humans...but there are proper channels to go through when that kind of thing happens. You don't grab a gun and start shooting or blow up ships to make your point. That makes you a terrorist, not a freedom fighter.

I'm not even arguing the Federation was right here. However, when there is a law, it is up to the people to obey it and the "military" to uphold it. That's the other problem: Cal Hudson, Ro Laren, Chakotay, B'Elanna Torres, Michael Eddington...they all betrayed the things they swore to uphold. They betrayed the uniform, what the Federation stood for and their oath as Starfleet officers. If you don't like a law, fight to change it within the bounds of what is legal. That's like American citizens planting bombs throughout the country if an election doesn't turn out the way they want it to.

Here's where your Borg analogy is flawed: the Borg assimilate with no recourse. You don't get to debate them. You don't get to argue with them. They take what they want or you leave. Simple as that.

I agree, Malcolm, it all depends on your point of view. If you're the Federation or Cardassian Empire, they're terrorists. If you're the Maquis, you're a freedom fighter. Personally, I draw the line if you have the ability/option to leave or have another remedy. These colonists were given the chance to leave and decided not to. These are not their native homes; they migrated to these planets. They knew what their decision meant, especially after the treaty. They had advocates in the Federation and could have leveraged that power to enact some kind of change or concessions from the Cardassians. But they didn't. The Cardassians were wrong based on what we saw in "The Wounded." No argument there. But two wrongs don't make a right in my mind.

I'm more than happy to continue on with episode discussions as jimmy progresses through the series, but I think this is the last I'll say about this (until "Blaze of Glory").

 

[jimmyjet]

hi jason,

the problem with that strategy (changing the law) is that very often it is impossible to do.

and this is why we have violence, in the first place, most of the time.

it is the only avenue that a small group has when being oppressed by some large entity.

if we look at the history of our planet, it is much the same. the wealth control and dominate - this is why "he who owns the gold, makes the rules" became a saying.

this is why so many americans want to own guns. they know they can count on themselves. hoping that some govt is gonna be there to protect them from wrongdoing is a very poor bet, at best.

my use of the borg was just another race. put in any name you want.

my point was that we humans would not just give up our planet to some other race of people without a fight.

i will bet dollars to donuts that if you were actually in that position of being oppressed, you would be doing what you could do, just like the maquis are doing.

to me, it is a sign of existence, or an interesting question ?

and that is, what does it take for a sentient being to overcome greed ? or his willingness to do something for himself at the cost of someone else ?

if we look at the imaginary world of star trek/gate, there have been a few races who have - the asgard. and a few other races. some were existing naturally in a state of energy.

but by far and away, most races with some sort of appendages, had nowhere near lost that desire.

 

[FoxyMulder]

You don't grab a gun and start shooting or blow up ships to make your point. That makes you a terrorist, not a freedom fighter.

When the other side don't listen or are oppressing your people then that is exactly what you do, if nothing else our history shows us that and often it can be effective in actually getting what you want from the other side, since we aren't allowed to talk politics i can't say more but once again i think it depends on your point of view, as an example, for me, being Scottish, i view William Wallace as a freedom fighter, many English people view him as a terrorist.

 

[jimmyjet]

you can bet your boots that george washington would have gone down in history as the biggest traitor ever, if the english had won that war !!

 

[jimmyjet]

in this latest episode, the cardassian military officer whose daughter looked like kira, is dying at ds9.

he is giving the federation more info about cardassia than their sum total info beforehand.

i dont see the federation denying this information because of the great act of treason this man is doing to cardassia.

MUCH, MUCH, MUCH GREATER than the simple betrayal that eddington did to sisko.

there is absolutely no comparison at all.

but this man is thought of as a great man by the federation.

i will say once again - eddington is just a maquis leader of sorts. as an individual, what he does or doesnt do does not add up that much in the sum total of the maquis.

displacing a whole planet of people to get rid of this "villain" is so far overboard, that it borders on the ridiculous.

on the other hand, the info they are currently getting deals with the most secret dealings of the cardassian govt, including much about their new leader, de kat.

extremely useful.

 

[jimmyjet]

hi jason,

i am at 14:46 into blaze of glory.

i wanted to write this before i see the rest.

there is nothing that i can think of, that will change my mind about what i have said.

this is a tv show, so the writers can choose to write anything they want.

but i dont like it when they do something contrary to what would have happened.

i chuckle at dax falling for worf.

sisko should have been executed for what he did. however, sisko would never have done that.

most actors, in interviews i have seen, are very protective about the characters they are playing. i would bet you dollars to donuts that avery complained about sisko displacing a planet's worth of people, to get one maquis.

now eddington has played true to his character, up to now. he says he doesnt care about what happens any more, cuz the dominion has wiped out all but a handful of maquis.

there is no way that sisko could or would trust him to give him correct codes, or a correct launching pad.

there is nothing left for eddington to live for. and no reason for him to help sisko. in fact, one would actually expect him to betray sisko again.

that is normal typical human behavior, when you have taken everything away from someone.

that being said, i will now finish the show. and report back - if for no other reason, but to state whether the actions were believable.

 

[jimmyjet]

hi jason,

it was a very good show.

this time i felt both sisko and eddington were true to their characters, as their characters had been developed.

i think the producers knew they made a big mistake by having sisko disable the entire planet.

if for no other reason, they probably got a lot of email from disgruntled fans.

star trek fans are known for their loyalty to their show !!!

 

[jimmyjet]

btw, thanks for not ruining it for me, by telling me anything.

 

[jimmyjet]

they have had a number of somewhat dumb shows lately.

i think they are having some writing woes.

"in the cards" is the one i just watched.

i dont mind a little silliness, but about half of the past 10 episodes have been poor.

the next one is the last of the season - so no doubt that will be good !!

cuz it wont be until the summer is over that i can watch the next episode !!!!!

 

[Jason_V]

they have had a number of somewhat dumb shows lately.

i think they are having some writing woes.

"in the cards" is the one i just watched.

i dont mind a little silliness, but about half of the past 10 episodes have been poor.

the next one is the last of the season - so no doubt that will be good !!

cuz it wont be until the summer is over that i can watch the next episode !!!!!

Aside from "For the Uniform," what others have been "dumb"? I think they all have, since that point, served a larger purpose, setting the ground work of what comes later.

I assume you're not talking about "By Inferno's Light" or "In Purgatory's Shadow" or "Dr. Bashir, I Presume." Therefore:

"A Simple Investigation": it is a slower episode, but it is important in that it's Odo's first romance. After the revelations of the last few eps, I think a slower, more character-centric show was needed.

"Business as Usual": another slower show, but it's a good Ferengi episode.

"Ties of Blood and Water": more character, but very important in the grand scheme of things and to the character of Kira.

"Ferengi Love Songs": Ugh. This all comes back through the next 2 years, but I'm not a fan.

"Soldiers of the Empire": a different kind of episode where Starfleet isn't front and center. Very important for Martok/Worf/Dax and to show another side of Klingons.

"Children of Time": brilliant.

"Blaze of Glory": I think you previously said you enjoyed this one.

"Empok Nor": a little DS9 horror story. Not a lot to do with the main storyline, but not everything needs to tie into it.

"In the Cards": reminds the audience Jake is still around and harkens back to the early days of Jake/Nog. Sure, a bit silly, but it's fun.

"Call to Arms": more brilliance.

 

[jimmyjet]

hi jason,

i think i would have to rewatch them again.

the ferengi shows, for sure.

empok nor - i dont know that it was silly, but it wasnt much good. garak turning into some freak. didnt have any meaning for me.

btw, i did not think uniform was dumb. i just did not like the way they betrayed sisko's character.

to me, they were just running out of good writing, so they needed the last show of the season to bring them back.

i just finished the first 2 shows of season 6. i guess it is gonna take them longer to get ds9 back then i figured.

but if i thought about it some more, they have a lot of material they can use to do so - and so i should have expected it to take awhile.

i am not sure they have a lot further they can go with this show. but it has had a lot of good episodes, just like all the rest of the treks.

i do see one fairly big difference between this one, and the 3 ship shows.

all the characters in ds9 have a much more equal footing. none of them strike out as a big star. in tos, it was kirk spock and mccoy. in tng, it was was data and picard. in voyager, seven, doctor and janeway.

i dont say it is bad or good - just an observation.

 

[Jason_V]

So wait...you mention at least half of the end of the season was dumb or bad and the only two you can point to are "Business as Usual" and "Ferengi Love Songs." That's not half of the rest of the season. So which ones are dumb in your opinion? I can accept you didn't like "Empok Nor" (it's not for everyone), but that's still only three.

See, I don't see it as "running out of good writing." I see it as the writers trying to serve two masters. One is what they wanted to do and the storyline they had created. That storyline was a connected, serialized story with recurring characters and an overall arc. The other is what the studio and some audiences wanted...episodic, where one episode doesn't necessarily affect any others. This is what TNG was, most of the time.

So there's a mix of episode types, which is what I think you're referring to. However, when you watch them, there are connections through every single episode. Whether through a new relationship being built, a character being introduced, a new storyline...all of it.

By the end of the series, I think they could have gone for another ten years. There's enough story there and characters constantly coming in and out of the narrative. But we'll talk about that when you get there.

 

[jimmyjet]

that is not exactly true for me - regarding the need to follow the story line.

dr bashir had delightful banter, but had no real importance - and i thoroughly enjoyed it.

you know, i dont have the instant recall that you do about these episodes. i had to go back and read about them - and then it pops up.

"Business as Usual" "Ferengi Love Songs" "Empok Nor" "In the Cards"

like the klingons, the ferengi are too one-dimensional. having 3 shows that centered around them so close together heightened my dislike.

i like nog as a cadet, as he is now an interesting character. but when he hangs around jake like 2 kids, i dont like it.

i dont see jake as a character being at all important. and currently staying around as a war journalist. he just isnt the slightest bit convincing to me.

eddington, on the other hand, was a wonderful actor. i wish they would have killed off jake, and kept eddington !!!