Dances with Wolves - Disc 'Rot'? (1 Viewer)

[DaViD Boulet]

Time to abandon the format altogether.

Or time to download some software over the internet so you can burn a "back up" DVD copy.

My interest in burning DVD copies of discs that I own has NOTHING to do with bootlegging but has EVERYTHING to do with trying to make a back-up of my dual-layer discs that might go belly up over the next few years!

dave

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

Or time to download some software over the internet so you can burn a "back up" DVD copy.

I'm going to have to agree with you, however I don't know how effective this stuff is at cloning the original, and obviously this isn't the place to discuss it.

I do think that regardless of its print status, the manufacturer should be held responsible. If Dances with Wolves is shown to have rot problems, then WAMO should press a new batch for those who send their rotten discs in. I don't see any reason this couldn't be done, as from a distribution standpoint, no increase in the number of discs in the market is occurring.

I also agree that any HD format is going to be far more at risk in this regard, since it will take smaller flaws to disable playback.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Jeff,

I think you're right that any blue-laser HD format would be at even higher risk given the smaller pit-size and tighter tolerance levels for playback.

Let's hope they *really* fix this. I was hoping that laserdisc would be the last format we'd have to worry about rotting...

 

[Howard S]

A quick update. As a first step, I contacted Image to see whether they could help. After a couple of mails back and forth, here is a summary of their response:

a. they cannot replace the disc, as they no longer have any copies left.

b. they cannot compensate me for my loss, because they are a wholesaler (whatever that means).

They have suggested two courses of action.

1. I buy the forthcoming Special Edition of the movie (which they tell me contains some very interesting special features.....!)

2. I buy a new DVD player!!

Naturally, I told them that I had tried the defective disc on more than one make and model of player, with the same problems. However they seem confident that if I take my Dances with Wolves disc to a retailer, I will find a player that it plays on.

Their mail concludes:

In regards to the longevity of your DVD collection, studies have shown that less than one percent of DVDs may be defective.

The problem of "laser rot" is no longer an issue in the home entertainment industry....

Naturally I'm not too happy at their response. Does anyone know how many DVDs have been sold worldwide? I'm interested to learn how many discs Image's "less than one percent" equates to.

I was an early adopter of DVDs, and paid top prices for the player and discs.

Aside from the loss of this particular edit of the movie, I don't see why I should be out of pocket.

I'm now off to try the suggestion that I contact WAMO.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

a 1 percent defect rate is great in any industry, hate to tell you. Many products have much higher defect rates

 

[Howard S]

Which is fine if the industry takes responsibility for the defects. In this case, even though the defect rate is low, the industry appears to be shrugging its shoulders about verifiable manufacturing defects.

 

[Bob Maged]

a 1 percent defect rate is great in any industry, hate to tell you. Many products have much higher defect rates

Not really. I wouldn't be too comfortable with the idea that 1% of all airliners will suddenly stop working in mid-flight.

I hope that my DVD collection doesn't contain 1% faulty disks. In the last few months I have encountered "laser-rot" type problems with Stigmata, A Clockwork Orange, and Gypsy, so I can look forward to another eight disks crapping out.

 

[Todd Robertson]

...all this made worse for the fact we cant make a back-up for home. makes alot of sense...hardy freakin' har. forget about the discs that are dying today....I'm worried about a few years from now, or a day soon when they will all be oop. nobody will help us, you can count on that. and it's a shame that leaders are in denial...afraid to start a panic on a much larger scale. right now, they could care less about the handful of people that are upset now...who know better. 1,000 dvds and now up to 24 on the "delaminated" list. I could care less about replacing them now....for the most part...it can be done. but later.....well...it's s.o.l. baby. leaders, forum owners, editors....everyone should voice out on this...regardless if they've seen it first hand or not. they need to take one for the team and take charge. sites such as this, which claim that dvds last 50 to 300 years....should re-investigate, or at least come up with some different numbers. is 2 to 10 years more accurate??

....all this rantin' from a guy who buys 10 dvds a week appears I have enough faith to continue, huh? or maybe I just need my films...like blood in my veins? or...I'm just a freak that wont know when to quit. I guess crack isnt good for crackheads either, but the rocks are selling at a rapid pace.

 

[Gordon McMurphy]

One thing I have always wondered is, how is a dual-layered DVD, err... 'glued' together?! And how do they manage to align the layers?

Nutty question, I know, but I feel it's relevant!


Gordy

 

[Seth Paxton]

My first DWW rotted also, separating near the edge so that the layer change area locked up.

When Best Buy flooded their stores with the DTS version I picked it up as a replacement. I don't need a collectors version of the film and now I have full rate DTS.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Nutty question, I know, but I feel it's relevant!

Not nutty at all. In fact, it was just this complication (of pressing the layers and having them line up *very* closely so the laser could "hop" from one layer to the next) that delayed the introduction of RDSL discs for so long. Artisan was the first studio to pony-up to the challenge with their first T2 16x9 RSDL release (which they did at the bequest of about 50 of us from the DVD-List serve who emailed the studio to petition for a 16x9 RSDL DVD).

 

[GlennH]

a 1 percent defect rate is great in any industry, hate to tell you. Many products have much higher defect rates

Not in the industry I work in, hate to tell you. (commercial nuclear power)

 

[Marcel_V]

A 1 percent defect rate is unnacceptable in today's world, with the available technology and process control available. 1% defect rate is below average actually, and we shouldnt have to tolerate it as consumers.

Today's companies should be striving for at *least* 3 sigma service level, which is 99.73 quality percentage. (.23% defect rate). That's the average for a north american company, so the DVD manufacturer is below standard. Nowadays the new thing is moving up to a 6 sigma level which is 99.9999998 product quality. Hopefully HD-DVD will improve on this problem.

 

[Terry St]

I've been trying to figure out exactly what I'm paying for when I buy a DVD. After I shell out 20 bucks I certainly don't own the movie. I can't set up a theatre to make big bucks off of showing it. This makes sense. Apparantly I don't own the media either though, since decrypting it or backing it up is illegal. This makes less sense. It seems as though I wind up owning a license to show that film in private. The media is just a means to that end. This seems consistent with what the MPAA wants, anyways.

However, as far as I know, my license to show the film doesn't expire. Even if the media itself deteriorates I will still have that license. Since the license is already paid for, shouldn't the publisher be obligated to provide replacement media at cost of materials and shipping if I send them the defective copy? If the rights to a film are transferred, shouldn't the obligation to honor past license agreements also be transferred?

I know this is a pretty unrealistic expectation. I'm just pointing out the downsides to the "license" paradigm. The MPAA wants all of the benefits but none of the obligations that accompany them. From where I stand, either I own a private showing license and have a right to replacement media at cost, or I own the media, and have a right to back it up legally without paying blank media taxes.

 

[Gordon McMurphy]

Terry, you're crazy; I like that!


Gordy

 

[Chad R]

That's all fine and good, but this situation isn't about idealism. It's simply the sad fact that Image no longer holds the rights to press that disc, they have no copies left with which to replace it, and if they could press it after their licesne expired it's far too much trouble to do so for a limited number of discs. It's not realistic to expect them to do so.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Terry,

Thanks for sharing your musings. A coworker and I had that same discussion a few days back so it was interesting to see you raise precisely the same points...

-dave

 

[Howard S]

It's simply the sad fact that Image no longer holds the rights to press that disc, they have no copies left with which to replace it

Given this fact, I asked Image for my money back, or suggested that they might like to purchase me the soon to be released version. These they have refused to do, even though I offered to return the defective disc. I don't think that these options are unrealistic - after all the industry makes a lot of money out of DVD sales and should take responsibility for manufacturing defects. What are the views of others?

Assuming a defect rate of 0.5%, I calculate that there are well in excess of 3 million defective DVDs 'decaying' in North America alone. If this proves to be the case, and the industry doesn't take appropriate steps to appease affected consumers, consumer confidence in the format could be dented.

 

[Gordon McMurphy]

I asked Image for my money back, or suggested that they might like to purchase me the soon to be released version. These they have refused to do, even though I offered to return the defective disc.

WHAT?! God, the arrogance. Their disc falls apart - a disc that you paid for, and they don't replace it or give you your money back? Frankly, Captain, that is illogical! Was it due to you being a non-US resident? Even so, they ought to have the morality to do the right thing. Oh, wait a minute...!

Unlucky, mate. :frowning:


Gordy

 

[DaViD Boulet]

DVDs are not, by design, produced to fall apart and deteriorate and become unplayable within the first few years of their life.

It is indeed a defect deserving of replacement or compensation.

It certaily was with laserdisc. If an LD developed rot and the retailer wouldn't do an exchange, you could contact Pioneer/Image directly and exchange the disc for a new one.

I did this on several occasions.

I never needed to exchange an OOP LD (had DVD replacements by then) but I would have imagined at the very least they would have exchanged my rotted copy for an LD of a different title if they had no stock left.

-dave