DAC's...Why is one better than another? (1 Viewer)

[Phil Mays]

Currently I have an Onkyo TX-DS 797 with an AMC 5-channel 150-WPC amp. I find that this setup sounds great particularly after I addded the external amp.

I have long considered upgrading the pre-pro to a Denon 4802 or 5800. My dealer claims I will be far happier with the Denon 5800. When I ask why, she says the DAC's are far superior over both the 4802 and 797. I will admit that it sounds very sharp and clean in the store. The speakers they run are B & W's which have a very clean sound anyway. I currently am using Klipsch speakers which I like but would trade for the nautilus set-up if I could afford.

I just purchased the RF-7 mains and a Pioneer SD533 HDTV. I guess my question is this. What do DAC's have to do with processing and will/can they "sharpen" the delivery of sound to my speakers.

Thanks for any help.

Phil

 

[Bob McElfresh]

Short answer: The Dennon 5800 is a fantastic receiver, but not just because of the D/A chips.

Longer Answer:

When you start looking under the hood of these receivers, you discover these D/A chips. You can order books that contain information about these chips and engineers/audiophiles often debate the features of one over the other.

Yes, some chips do have better specs.

But many of these chips were designed for generic D/A use, not just audio. This means they can operate in a wide variety of circuits & speeds. Many of the specs that make one chip better than another just dont matter in your AV receiver.

Of course: a CD player from 4 years ago that had A/D chips to handle DVD/CD cannot handle the new SACD/DVD-A bit streams. The newer receivers have "better" A/D chips to handle the new formats.

Does this mean the new chips sound any better than the ones 4 years ago with a CD? Yes, but the contribution of the D/A chips is slight.

A receiver is a sum of parts. Things that are MORE important to the sound (IMHO) are:

- Better isolation of the electronics ground/power supply from the amplifier power-supply

- Care with the internal wires and circuit traces to keep them away from interference

- Massive transformer to handle power & still stay cool

But it's much harder for a salesperson to sell-you on a receiver based on these because there is no way to quantify/put a number on them.

So they brag that the D/A chip is "the latest/greatest" thing from Burr Brown or Analog Devices.

Hope this helps.

 

[Phil Mays]

Bob,

Thanks, it did! While I really do not want to spend the extra money, it does seem that the 5800 is "crisper" than my 797. Again this could be the B & W speakers.

Any other comments on this would be greatly welcomed!

Phil

 

[Chu Gai]

Different speakers, different room, different feature sets...got to bring it home and do some accurate assessments I think Phil. On the other hand, it's calling to you

 

[Phil Mays]

Chu,

It kinda is calling, and has been for a while. I'm to the point that I can get it, but, I really do not want to if the DAC's in my Onkyo 797 will perform as well as the DAC's in the Denon 5800.

 

[rob-socal]

Phil: Why don't you try the 3803. It's 1/3 the cost of the 58xx and has the same DAC's If you don't think it's 110 Watts is enough, just plug in your amp. Then let us all know how this setup compares to the internal 3803 amps and your older setup.

I'm thinking of adding an AMP to my 3803.
-RJ.

 

[Chu Gai]

Phil, what can I say other than I respect your caution and desire to make a verifiable, take it to the bank, improvement in your existing system. While not related to a DAC comparison between the 2 receivers, consider the statements made by this person that were posted days apart re: CD players.

When I listen to the Gamma, I get pulled into the music. When I listen to either of the others, I go in too, but an ocassional, subtle, transient, something in the music, makes me have to work harder to maintain the illusion. The Gamma is less work!

Now I certainly don't put much stock in just one person's experience especially when it comes to matters related to audio however I mention the above largely to illustrate that it can be a confounding matter to determine audible differences with DACs. And this guy who wrote was making sighted comparisons and not even a mention of level matching.

When one talks about whether one DAC is better than another it might be more proper to say is this particular implementation of a DAC better than 'that' one. Even within a manufacturer such as Burr-Brown one's going to have different models of DACs. They'll differ with respect to what they're capable of doing, their heat dissipation properties, their power requirements, etc. so one will naturally assume there to be a debate even within one family.

My own little 'theory' on DACs Phil is as follows. If you're looking at products that are relatively mainstream and that includes the Denons, Sonys, Onkyos, Rotels, and anything that's got something remotely to a slice of the audio pie, then you're going to be hard pressed, damned hard pressed to tell any differences between them if doing the comparison unsighted and level matched. The reason is that they're all designing largely for the masses and the engineers are trying pretty hard to get things flat, accurate and right within the constraints that marketing imposes upon them. Differences I might be expected to hear would be the way these products handle very very low signals. So if you're always listening to things very softly then yes, I could envision that some products would do this better. If you're not, audible masking is going to take effect and it's not going to matter. Where one has products that are not mainstream, those that represent the high end crumbs, I can definitely envision that things like freqency response may be slightly altered...a little bump in the 1-5 kHz region and a bit of a roll off of the high end in order to give that presence, warmth, and involvement that people talk about. However, equalize these designer 'anomolies' and likely you're going to be close to the scenario I just mentioned.

My recommendation? Evaluate the unit critically in your own home. Maybe your definition of critcially differs from mine but regardless, you've got to live with it, no?

 

[Phil Mays]

Chu,

As always, great point. Thanks again...I think (as much as I hate to because of connecting) I will demo the unit at home to see If can tell any difference.

Phil

 

[Chu Gai]

best of luck in your evaluation Phil. maybe there'll be other compelling reasons to purchase the unit, right?!

 

[Phil Mays]

Hopefully not...I have too many other "compelling" wants.

 

[Manuel Delaflor]

Phil, that is the best you can do. Hear for yourself in order to know if there is a difference or not.
(warning, maybe some "objectivist" will come to tell that you need to perform a DBT in order to really find out if there is an actual difference or not)

 

[Chu Gai]

at around $1800 for the model 4802 or $3100 for the model 5803 (i'm sure Phil's gonna do better than those!) a critical evaluation is in order. heck it'd thrill me to death, well near death, if phil would find a way to do a dbt. either way i hope he's comfortable with his decision.