D-VHS support pretty sad (1 Viewer)

[RichardMA]

WSR's latest issue has them reviewing some kind of
pseudo-porno (Playboy? Not sure) D-VHS just to try to
make it look like something is being released.
This says to me that the format will be more of oddball
than laserdisc was. Frankly, I'm content to wait for
HD-DVD.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

That's the problem... HD-DVD's in the foreseeable future. If there was nothing better in sight, I think you would have seen D-VHS take on atleast laserdisc status. As it is, most people are content to wait.

 

[Paul_Scott]

Laserdiscs had several several things over vhs tapes, back in the day, superior a/v being just one thing.
OAR was the biggest draw for me.
toss in random acsess, multiple audio track capability, supplemental content, non degrading media (not counting laser rot)...
it was no wonder why they were big with movie lovers.

as far as i can see, Dvhs is the epitome of a one trick pony.

of course the pathetic choices for software don't help me to take it seriously either...

if WSR were the big cheerleaders for this format that they seem to be, shouldn't they be the ones bitching & moaning the loudest?

 

[Travis Hedger]

Tape is EVIL. Just plain EVIL.

I don't care for HD on tape as the possibility of it getting ate up by the player, and degrading quality over time.

HD-DVD is what I am waiting for.

 

[Kevin Nolan]

Fine by me I only want a far less degradable media than tape and I love the accesabiliy of disk! I only hope that this media fizzles away.....
Kevin

 

[Christopher a]

Tape is EVIL. Just plain EVIL.

Compression artifacts and edge enhancement. Just Plain Evil.

How many of you have actually had hands on experience with a DVHS deck in their homes and have seen the advantages over dvd...and for that matter, broadcast HD?

Chris

 

[Phil Nichols]

Travis,

How do you figure degrading over time will impact digital data on a tape? Won't a digital-content tape (such as D-VHS) have to wear an AWFUL lot before affecting anything you'll see in the images - unlike analog tape?

I have a modest widescreen VHS library I built-up before getting a DVD player and never wore out one of my analog VHS tapes enough to see it in the images - let alone a digital tape.

 

[Paul_Scott]

Christopher,
i have seen a D-theater tape of U-571.
yes, there is more resolution.
yes, you can see more detail.
yes, it is nice.
the tape was also, already unwatchable for ordinary viewing.
it was ridled every few seoconds with horrible pixilation/freezing/dropouts.
much, much worse than analog dropouts, this stuff pretty much affected the entire screen.
before you ask; i have no idea how many times its been played, and neither did the sales man.
i don't understand why they even still had it at that point, as the tape was probably going to turn more people off than convince them to buy.
they should have just thrown it out.
so you say you will never play a tape that much to ever wear it out? well, i would think being tape, its going to start to wear on the second play- since physical contact with the tape heads is involved.
[i also looked at the actual tape itself, and couldn't see anything wrong with it- it had no chewed edges, or imperfections on the tape surface.]
fine if you're only planning on watching a tape once or twice, but i wouldn't be demoing favorite scenes over & over with this media (like i did on laser & still do on dvd), and i would also be very leary of ever buying used/pre-viewed tapes.
as far as the pathetic comment in regards to the available catalog now-no i'm just not interested in Fight Club, Ice Age or Castaway. there are a few titles i would buy, but i could count them on one hand and still have enough fingers left over to pick up large utensils.
and then after i exhausted those choices...there is just nothing on the horizon.
and a huge hole where Warner and Columbia and MGM/UA titles could be.
what i was really trying to get across in the first post was that i don't see DVHS as having anywhere near the facination or appeal that Laserdiscs had in its time.
LD had just way more to offer over vhs, where DVHS's advantage exists in one area only.
after that, you are giving up 5 or 6 qualities just to gain in an area that i already find quite acceptable in well mastered dvds.
dvd quality, while not perfect and definitely not HD, still packs enough to freqently amaze me when its projected large.
in fact, i find it so good sometimes, that the thought that i am 'settling' for old 480p doesn't even cross my mind.

 

[JamieD]

Guys, let's try not to let this one go quite as wildly off in the antagonistic DVHS D-DVD again, though it's hard not to with the topic.

 

[Christopher a]

the tape was also, already unwatchable for ordinary viewing. it was ridled every few seoconds with horrible pixilation/freezing/dropouts.

Paul, I believe there were problems with some of the initail players. I assure you, if I experience breakup for a split second once every 5 movies I watch, that's about it. I dealt with it when dvd first came out as well with audio dropouts.

LD had just way more to offer over vhs, where DVHS's advantage exists in one area only.

And this is what I just don't understand, especially from a person who owned Laserdisc. Maybe it's just me, but when I got into Laser, it was for the video and sound quality. At the time, I was more interested in audio than video. The audio on Laser really got to the point that dvd hasn't even reached (totally different topic) and the video for the time was light years ahead of vhs. Sure, it has chapter stops and all that. But the real reason I got into Laser is because of the quality. When I brought my first Laserdisc, T2, I was immediatly thrown back by the sound quality on that disc. Amazing!! Now this is what I got into Laserdisc for. I guess I just assumed that's what every Home Theater nut was into. Video & Audio quality comes first, and all of the convienient features comes second. Now I'm being told by everyone, including Laserdisc veterans, that convienience comes first, audio and video second. Do any of you remember changing discs about a million times during a Star Wars film from the Definitive collection? You know what, that wasn't so convienient. I didn't care at all. It was the best way to watch that trilogy. Period.
Tp me, HT will always be about watching my favorite films in the best presentation possible, in their OAR.
Chris

 

[Christopher a]

Sorry had a little problem with my first quote above:b

 

[Paul_Scott]

Christopher,
for me Laserdisc was all about OAR.
i was watching on a 25" quasar console tv, thru the tv speakers, so, while i still saw the improvement in a/v...er at least v, that area wasn't the main reason at all.
seeing Star Wars and Superman in their OAR for the first time in 10 years...that was the #1 draw for me.
for a film fan, having one format offering films in their OAR, vs the other format offering only pan and scan-
there you have a major, MAJOR point of difference.
higher quality, and all the other features were all just icing on the cake after that.
you just don't see such a monumental advantage like that w/ dvhs.
i look at DVHS as 'you get less, but its better',
whereas LD was 'you get more AND its better'.

if i had HD satelite feeds, i might view this a little differently, but for the foreseeable future, theres just nothing there for me.


and you are right.
the major deficet to LD was the side flipping.
at the time it didn't bother me, 'cause everything else about it was so cool, but after living with dvd for a few years...

 

[Bob Black]

Christopher,
I recently upgraded to hi-definition in my home theater with the addition of the Dishnet 6000 receiver, and I must say that picture quality is excellent. However, I am NOT interested in D-VHS for various reasons. Price, availability of pre-recorded titles, and most importantly because it is a TAPE format! And if you think the inherent problem with tape is a non-issue, check out this thread in the AVS forum:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=189832
In addition to the widespread problems discussed in the above thread, the following comments regarding other very REAL problems with D-Theater were written by current owners of this technology on the AVS Forum. The comments made are the very reasons why anti-tape sentiment is so widespread.
Mike M - "Suffice it to say that you have to cross your fingers every time you use this machine and I'm not sure that's the experience we should be accustomed to when buying a $1000+ device."
"I have owned this machine for several months and when I do get a tape in the mail I usually play it and check it out for maybe 20 minutes or so. I have started to notice glitches (Fight Club for sure, The Japan demo tape for sure). These are brief breakups at any rate and not too disturbing. I used the phrase "cross my fingers" because I never saw them for two months and figured I was lucky in that I got a good machine compared to so many other people I know that have returned theirs as defective (one fellow has done it four times on his own). But, after looking at repeated glitches on Fight Club, I got nervous that something had indeed deteriorated on my unit. Hopefully, it's nothing and goes away or it's just dirt on the heads, but that brings up a different complaint in that I don't feel one should have to be cleaning heads after two months or so of limited use."
"After reading this forum, I am resigned to believe that it's only a matter of short time before the glitches go haywire. I will tell you one thing - anyone who thinks removing the cover and pulling out Q-tips dampened in some sort of solution to clean microscopic areas of the heads on a regular basis and thinks that's normal wear and tear needs to have their head examined."
"I have to say that your willingness to accept mediocrity with respect to a reliable high quality playback environment is a bit baffling. To me, that's rationalizing and you deserve better for what you paid and the time you have invested. It is not the same as having your oil checked every 3,000 miles (BTW I don't know too many cars or drivers that demand that type of frequency and their cars still run fine). Checking is one thing -- dismantling the unit to gain access and having to be almost a trained technician so as not to hurt something inside is quite another. I said earlier that if all it means is inserting a self cleaning tape and 1-2-3 presto -- the heads are cleaned --- then that's fine."
Art Sonneborn - "Well if I could have tried to time it worse it would have been tough to top this. Last night I'm having a Halloween party 10 adults in my HT. Several men and women interested in seeing a movie in HD. Fight Club DTheater goes up and everyone goes very quiet! It just looks spectacular! About one hour in the glitches start. One or two I say to myself s**t!! But that’s it for about ten minutes. I say to myself maybe I'm out of the woods then they start again with a vengeance. I go over try the unplug and wait then start again but they are just worse now. I then say f**k it and put in the DVD which is no slouch."
"My experiences mirror those of BigRalf almost to the letter. Fight Club was the first tape with significant glitches. They were multiple green blocks moving across the screen. I had one very minor glitch in U571 less than a second and in the same place every time. XMen was clean but after running Fight Club all had glitches and they make the tapes unwatchable."
The BigRalf - "I got my JVC about 3 weeks ago and so far could only watch 4 D-Theater tapes. X-Men, Don't Say A Word and Entrapment were pure enlightment, not a single glitch or dropout. Yesterday I watched Fight Club, and guess what, even before the D-Theater logo I had no sound and green blocks in the picture 'flying' from left to right. It did not get better when the film started. So I completely fast forwarded to the end and rewound. No glitches from start. After 10 minutes they appeared again, I rewound to the same spot, of course it was glitch-free then. Then there were no glitches for nearly 2 hours, only a very minor one at the end."
Hank527 - "I'm in the same situation as Art. I do not have a Dtheatre deck, but am getting one. I have 2 Dtheatre titles and am ordering more without the deck. When I get the deck, It will take a month or 2 to view the titles I just do not have the time on hand. So bad tapes scare me even more. Also I have to order tapes via the internet so if they are bad its a hassle. This surely is not a good thing that there seem to be several defective tapes out there."
h2ofun - "Another data point. Richard just called me yesterday and said his 4th JVC has now stopped working. This is over the 30 days period so he’s going to have to send it in to be fixed. So I had to loan him one of mine again."
As you can see, the design of these decks leaves much to be desired. If they manufacture a worthwhile product capable of recording HD efficiently and cost-effectively, I would consider a purchase. But ONLY FOR RECORDING HD, I want to make that perfectly clear! I would never build a collection of films on tape format when optical disc offers so much more!
I know a handful of members have bought into this format and continue to praise its PQ and bash DVD, but the fact is that DVD can look exceptional whan done correctly (eg. Star Wars Episode 2, LOTR, Monsters Inc, etc.) It is not HD quality, but it looks damn fine on my system through the scaler - very close to HD quality in several instances! But DVD certainly has a brighter future than D-VHS when comparing the two formats' acceptance. And with HD-DVD a very real possibility for 2003 (but to listen to supporters of D-VHS you would think it will NEVER become reality) D-VHS has no future that I can see! The near future is certainly HD, but it won't occur overnight and it certainly won't be on tape format!

 

[Kevin Nolan]

A reply to Phil's comment...Ok Phil I'll give you that it would take a lot of degradation for it to show up. BUT machines have been known to eat/break tapes for mysterious reasons. And simply this I still feel total access to the content by rewinding and fast forwarding is way too much of a hassle.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

so you say you will never play a tape that much to ever wear it out? well, i would think being tape, its going to start to wear on the second play- since physical contact with the tape heads is involved.

Yes, but it would take a significant number of viewings before the pixelation/dropouts became numerous enough to be irritating.

 

[Paul_Scott]

the way DVHS enthusiasts talked, you would think viewing dvds was akin to watching kinoscopes of old tv broadcasts
ok,
my mistake.
i haven't really been following the threads on this, so what i assumed was drop-outs due to wear, must be something else.
the glitches described in a previous post sound very close to what i saw.
so in fact, problems due to wear may not be a big worry after all-
it sounds like quality control is, though.
to be honest , the first time i saw a dvd demo (at the fondly remebered Laserdisc Enterprises in atlanta) i saw major pixilation, compression problems, etc. my reaction was "this technology blows...give me laserdiscs any day".
it took me about 4 years (and seeing more releases start showing up in amarays as opposed to snappers) before i gave it a serious second look.
so i'm sure they will start getting the bugs worked out eventually. but by that time...
any way you look at it, you have to admit this has been one of the biggest boneheaded rollouts of a consumer electronic device ever.
they should have had at least 50 titles on deck, available, before they shipped one unit.
thats what 10-15 titles per studio?
it sure is a head scratcher...

 

[Bryant Trew]

The simple reality is that fight club in high definition is still fight club. I think that unlike with laser disc, you won't find the majority of movie collectors replacing their dvds with hi-def transfers. They'll buy their new movies in high def, but see no need to replace their currently-owned DVDs. HD is great, and looks much better than 480p, but it's not great enough to go back to tape and buy titles you already own or could buy on DVD.

Looking at the Star Wars II transfer on my 58" widescreen, I really am not in a rush for HD-DVD. I'm pretty content to be honest. And, judging by the wow factor people get from my home theatre, I'd imagine that the majority of people are happy with DVD quality as well. HD has a market, but it sure as hell isn't on tape...

 

[Lars Vermundsberget]

I doubt that I'll ever have this new VHS thing in my home. But that's not my point.

I think it's funny to see how very different experiences people have with VHS tape. Some think it's so bad that they even say it's evil and stress the importance of the tape format's lack of convenient features. While others claim they've never had a problem.

I think that most of my bad tapes were bad from the start. I think it's obvious that not all VHS tapes are the same - some are cheap in the worst sense of the word while others are not really bad at all (relatively speaking...).

It seems to me that those who used to have tapes eaten by the VCR all the time must have had either a bad VCR or bad tapes. I've had the problem too, but only a couple of times with an old VCR.

 

[Jack Briggs]

The tape being reviewed in the current WSR is hardly "pornographic." It's simply HDNet's cheesecake entry, Bikini Destinations. Just skimpy bathing suits, is all.

The glitches being reported are worrisome, but what D-VHS D-Theater can do is help hasten the overall rollout of HDTV—and the arrival of some sort of HD-DVD.

Meanwhile, if, like WSR editor Gary Reber is fond of saying, you want your home theater to be the "best it can be," D-Theater potentially affords you the finest-possible picture the current state of the art allows.

 

[Eric F]

You guys do realize that porn outsells all other software by a wide margin, right? Are you saying that porn on a format demeans it? You are putting moral judgments on a piece of hardware? I don't get it.

At any rate, as the price lowers, I'm getting more than tempted to jump in. Within a few months the price of the JVC 300000 should hit $500. That might be too hard for me to resist.