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Curtains for the Mac Pro? (1 Viewer)

DaveF

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I really don't understand the Xeon product line, so...are the Mac Pros using outdated Xeons? Are there newer, faster CPUs than what Apple is offering? Can you go to Dell and buy a faster workstation?
 

Carlo_M

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Totally with you Dave, the Xeon line is ultra confusing. Near as I can tell the new Mac Pros are running older Xeon processors. According to Apple's product page, the standard quad core config uses a 3.2GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon W3565. The 12-core build uses two 2.4GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5645 processors.
Looking at the Intel Xeon comparison page:
Neither chip is listed! Meaning Intel isn't even offering them right now to people currently building server-class machines.
I had to look for the W3565 product page specifically to find that it launched Q4 2009. So the quad core chip is two and a half years old.
The six core E5645 product page says that launched in Q1 2010, so it's only two and a quarter years old. That's pretty old for a "top of the line Mac". :eek:
The new Intel server chips kick these chips' a$$e$.
For Nelson: I don't think Thunderbolt will be the only thing you're missing out on from the 2013 Mac Pro. Most likely that Pro will come with USB 3.0 as well. Also the graphics cards will likely be a much better option than what's being sold now (those solutions are as old as the CPUs!). I'm going to guess some sort of redesign will happen as well, maybe not dramatic, but different. RAM speed will probably increase to 1600MHz as well. There will probably be a whole new chipset released with the new Mac Pro with faster everything. I mean even the most current Xeons on the Intel page are from Q2 2011 so the whole Xeon line is ready for an overhaul.
 

Nelson Au

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Thanks for taking the time to post the detailed look at the aging Mac Pro line-up.
Well, I'll see if I can hold out a little longer. :(
 

Carlo_M

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I can honestly see "being happy" with the Mac Pro only in the sense that the formerly $4999 12-core build is now $3799 and comes with more standard RAM than the $5K build. But yeah, when you look at what is hopefully right around the corner, it really does pale. Look at some of those current Xeon E7 chips. Instead of a six-core 2.4GHz Xeon with 12MB of cache, Apple could use a similarly priced (at the time the E5645 came out) E5-2650 2 GHz 8-core CPU with 20MB cache. So for the $3800 build that would be 16 physical cores, 32 virtual cores with HT with DDR3 1600MHz support.
And that's assuming that new chipsets/CPUs don't come out between now and the 2013 Mac Pro.
The new [for 2013] $3800 Mac Pro should have, at minimum, dual 8-core 2.0 GHz CPU with 20MB cache per CPU, 12 or 16GB DDR3 MHz RAM, ATI Radeon HD7870 or HD7950 or better graphics card w/ 2GB GDDR5 memory (or nVidia equivalent), USB 3.0, Thunderbolt, 802.11ac network (as opposed to 802.11n), Bluetooth 4.0 (as opposed to 2.1 on current version, heck the new Airs/MBPs have BT4).
I am one of those who doesn't always believe in "waiting for something better" because there's always something better and you'll end up never buying anything. But when that "something better" is significantly better because the current model is using nearly 3 year old technology, well unless you absolutely need to buy it right now (i.e. your PC died) I would seriously wait. And heck even if my PC died I'd probably buy a cheap Dell or Mac Mini to tide me over. Better to waste under a $1000 now (which you could repurpose to a media server later) than waste $3000+ for something that's going to be blown away in less than 12 months.
BTW - I don't agree with his rational behind buying the Mac Pro, dissecting Tim Cook's response to say that 1) it could be over a year until updates due to his "later next year" quote, and 2) that it's not guaranteed to be a Mac Pro because Apple rep clarified to say his statement didn't apply to iMacs. Marco took that to mean next year we could see iMacs that would satisfy "pros".
Personally I think iMacs were taken out of that phrase because they *will* be updated sooner rather than later. It wouldn't surprise me to see them by the time the school year starts in September. And maybe I'm being Pollyanna but by "later next year" I took Tim to mean later, next year (as in it could be as early as Q1-2 2013). I could be wrong.
Mac Pros were either going to be discontinued and Apple would get out of the Pro market, or they'd continue to support them and Pros. With Cook reaffirming the importance of "pros" to Apple, he better release new Mac Pros. Because if he thinks "pros" can get by on iMacs alone...he's out of touch with reality (and I don't think he is). With current Xeon chipsets not natively supporting Thunderbolt, it made sense for Apple to be a little gunshy of releasing a completely new Mac Pro that *still* didn't do Bolt. Can you imagine the flack they'd receive for that? Probably slightly less than what they got for labeling the Mac Pro as "new" ;)
 

Sam Posten

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Rumor of an anti-glare iMac. If that's the case I will do it and give up on waiting for the Mac Pro. Thunderbolt and USB 3 mostly kill my total reliance on internal drives. Kepler video cards, Ivy Bridge, SSD boot drive and anti glare would be enough for me.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/07/04/supply_of_apples_27_imac_drying_up_as_ivy_bridge_upgrade_awaits.html
 

Sam Posten

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Just filled slots 4 with a 3tb drive. I'd have bought bigger ones if I could. My 'original' slots one and two remain at 750s, don't think i will upgrade them unless I really have to. I'd love to replace the boot drive with an SSD but I don't think it would really be effective in this era box.... I'm moving files around but this should give me about 1.5 tb of open space for each of my photos and just over 200 gigs for my media.
Gotta say tho putting all 110,000+ photos from one drive to another makes me just a tad nervous. I have multiple backups but still..... That's the last 8 years of my life in one fell swoop. I'd have less pain with my HT blowing up than losing my photos. =)
This should hold me over until the Ivy Bridge iMac refresh and I can see if that will cut it (with external thunderbolt drives) or if I really need to wait for the Mac Pro refresh. Hoping the iMac refresh hits with the Mountain Lion release, that would be badass....
If I do move to the iMac I'll probably keep the Mac Pro as my iTunes machine, and serve whole house media from that and make the iMac JUST photo editing. We'll see, it's going to come down to just how big a difference the AG coating is. I helped my sister's family move to last year's 27" iMac from the PC world and they love it and the glossy didn't bother me TOO much. Again, we'll see.
 

Sam Posten

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Keep the faith! =)
As we wrote last week when OS X Mountain Lion entered golden master status, Apple has a tendency to make announcements immediately following its earnings calls. Apple released OS X Lion last year the day after its third-quarter earnings call—also in July—alongside new MacBook Airs, Mac minis, and Cinema Displays. According to 9to5Mac's sources, however, this year's Mountain Lion launch isn't expected to coincide with new hardware.
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/07/signs-point-to-july-25-mountain-lion-launch-date/
 

Carlo_M

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Couldn't wait for Apple to make up its mind, so I had to spend my hard earned cash on a killer third party music-playing, iPod-compatible device:
2d76300a_TL1_s.jpeg

:D
Couldn't pass it up. Was on vacation in San Diego, the price was right ($6K off MSRP, $3K under invoice), financing was great at 0.9 and my 2000 Altima was really showing its age. Not in terms of breaking down (it had 108K on it) but just in terms of overall ride quality. Cars have progressed a lot in the last 12 years.
Hopefully I'll still have enough to spring for a Mac Pro if/when they come out.
 

Ronald Epstein

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Carlo,
Congrats on your new iPod player. Wow.
Is that an RL or a TL? I had an RL in 2005
and loved it.
 

Carlo_M

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Thanks Ron - it's a 2012 TL w/ Tech, standard FWD. I test drove the SH-AWD as well, and it does corner like a monster, but the loss of about 2-4mpg coupled with another $3K to spend really didn't entice me too much. It's only about 25hp more too, which is a bit offset by the heavier curb weight of the AWD model. Also I'm at the age now where ride comfort and road noise are my top priorities, while still wanting to feel connected to the road, hence why I didn't buy like a Cadillac or Mercedes which had too luxurious of a ride, and a BMW/Audi were too sporty. I liked the feel of the TL vs. the IS350 and G37 that I test drove, and the ES line just looks too much like a Camry.
That said, I'm glad they re-did the front fascia on the TL. The 2010-11 models were too...ugly. This one they scaled back a bit in terms of controversial looks and I love the look of it. Also the color was hard to find in So-Cal. There are 18 Acura dealerships and maybe 10 total in Basque Red Pearl for all of them.
I know what you mean about loving the car, Ron. I don't drive much (9K a year, walk to work) but even then I've had no buyer's remorse in the week and a half I've owned the car. It really is the first "grown up" car I've purchased. Hoping to get a good decade out of it.
Hopefully in 2013 I'll be putting a Pro in the trunk! ;) (just to bring the thread back on-point) :)
 

Ronald Epstein

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My lease on my Cadillac ends early next year.

I may be looking to go back with Acura. The TL looks
like it may just suit me well. Handsome car. I agree
that the revamp did it a world of good.
 

Carlo_M

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I'm sure Eyes Free will work better than what I have now, but currently Acura's Tech package allows you to do things with verbal commands as well. It just will take a lot of time for me to learn all of the lexicon. But yeah, Eyes Free looks cool. I can already have the car call people, map directions (but you have to know either the place name and it has to be in the database or else know the street address and say it verbally which is a clunky way to do it) and search iPod lists, albums, artists and songs. It was cool the other day when I showed off to my friends "Play...album...Badmotorfinger" although the female Siri-ish voice replied with something that sounded like "Playing...album...badmorfinjer". Hey at least she got the right album going! ;)
I'm not going to lose any sleep over not getting Eyes Free, especially since once the 2013 models come out I likely would have ended up paying about $4K more for the car than I did, and maybe not get the same favorable financing rate. But I do know that Acura Nav can be updated via disc, so it would be really cool if it could be backwards-updated for older models (doubt it) for a fee.
Ron - for 2013 all the rumor sites (and the salesman) said there will be minimal changes to the 2012 version. He hears that potentially the nav pushbutton functions will be disabled when the car is going over X mph (like 10mph). Not even the passenger will be able to monkey with it. Presumably you'll still be able to talk to it while driving. They're probably banking on Eyes Free to make up for the pushbutton disabling once the car is rolling.
For 2014 most people (salesman included) think there will be a major redesign of the TL, along with a discontinuation of the TSX. I'm reading about a possible "TLX" to compliment the ILX that was recently released, and be some kind of morphing of the TSX and TL lines. That would be weird for Acura to consider, based on the fact that people buying TLs and TSXs are after very different things (sporty vs. luxury). My SO's brother is about to return his 2010 TSX lease and it rides very differently from the TL.
 

Sam Posten

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Still working on more pro apps:
http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2012/08/boom-apple-invents-next-gen-virtual-drawing-app-to-take-on-adobes-photoshop-illustrator.html
 

Carlo_M

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Sweet, a graphics card that costs as much as an entry-level Mac Pro at my academic discount price! Where do I sign up?
 

Carlo_M

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Wow that article doesn't give me much hope (not that they won't release one, but the people there seem to think they'll miniaturize like everything else they make).
The only thing that gives me a glimmer of hope is that the Mac Pro is the *one* thing that hasn't gotten smaller over the years. The iMac, the introduction of the Mac Mini, and their notebooks have all become svelte over time and the Mac Pro during its lifespan has not.
I know Jobs famously didn't believe in focus groups and thought that people didn't know what they wanted until *he* gave it to them. And time has proven him right on many occasions. But the Mac Pro is squarely aimed at professionals (or aspiring professionals) whose lifeblood depends on these machines. There's an entire industry, powered by other software by companies like Avid, Adobe, Autodesk, who make programs that people use, and which Apple has no suitable substitute for, at least on the industry level. This is the one area where I think if you are planning to continue providing pro-level machines, you need to factor in what the industry pros need.
Take moviemaking, 4K, 8K. The files are getting bigger. Sure the codecs are getting streamlined and more efficient, but gigabytes and terabytes are what are needed here, and no Mac Mini is going to render those in a great manner.
Heck I have a top of the line 2010 MBP and using Pro Tools with many plugins begins to slow it down, and I'm doing nowhere near the stuff that the "pros" are using. Using Premiere Pro to render a 4 minute video of my 2011 vacation in 1080p took an inordinate amount of time, I can't imagine what trying to do a 2 hour movie would feel like, with professional level cuts, fades, effects and soundtracks.
If the Mac Pro is truly for professionals, Apple needs to take all of this into account and release a machine commensurate to the task. Dual server level CPU options, 4 drive bays, at least 3PCI free PCI lanes for add-in cards, whether it be an additional graphics card, a Pro Tools HD card, etc.
Otherwise, as much as it pains me to say it, leave this segment of the market completely. Send out the message loud and clear that you're not supporting this anymore, and give us the greenlight to build our own PCs. As much as I'd dislike moving back to the Windows platform, at least if Apple made it clear that the Mac Pro is going to be end-of-life'd, then that's the direction I would go, rather than going with an iMac+external HD (which would give you no ability to add graphics cards or other PCI-e cards that drive so much of the industry software).
Sam I know this last part runs counter to what we talked about at Intelligentsia, but using CS6 more on my MBP has convinced me that more power, flexibility and storage are needed to do what I really want to do. If the next Pro is indeed what those people in the link fear, I'm building a "god box" PC (as ARS Technica called it in their builder's guide). But I'll probably slap 7 on it because 8...is a bit offputting, at least in the 20 minutes I played with it at Best Buy yesterday.
 

Sam Posten

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I don't think they have any real insider info, just speculation.
I've always felt that there is room for a middle ground between iMac and Mac Pro, but it hasn't worked out like that. And you have to realize that the Pro market is a TINY TINY and ever decreasing in importance part of what Apple does. Making an enthusiast box that doesn't match the lunatic fringe needs of today's Mac Pro buyer would be AOK with me but we both know it would piss off the high end guys...
We'll see.
 

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