Could the original, unaltered STAR WARS be on its way to Blu-ray? (1 Viewer)

[gizzy2000]

there's a difference between a minimal effort and a completely insulting after-thought, which is what the 2006 feature was. My point is, there is absolutely no logical business reason to not include the unaltered versions, especially since it won't take much to make them look acceptable. Also, there is more demand than you might think for the unaltered versions, I'm not saying that all people who want the original versions won't buy the special editions, but almost every person i've spoken to on the subject agrees that the Special Editions look laughable in places. I've seen screenings of the Special Edition where the Han/Greedo scene is booed by the audience, and in the lead up to Episode VII the original movies are going to be milked as much as possible to build hype for the next movie, and I'm sure they'll do some kind of re-release of the movies as well, and what better way to advertise it than to put a sticker on the box that says "theatrical versions included". I'm not naive enough to think that the original versions will make Disney's 4 billion back, but when they sell dvd's, they want them to sell as well as possible, and if they think including the real versions will help then they'll include them.

 

[hanshotfirst1138]

While minimal effort would be better than the non-anamorphic insult, it still would indicate that arguably the most important piece of film history is simply being regulated to a second thought. I think it's the best we'd get though, I think idea that the OOT would get a proper restoration (much less a 4K scan of a DCP) is wishful thinking. As a recovering fan, I've been burned too many times to get my hopes up. I wonder if it's even possible with the hack job Lucas apparently made of the negatives .

 

[gizzy2000]

It's possible and for a reasonable cost (Lucas was lying when he told us all that the negatives were destroyed), http://savestarwars.com/filmpreservation.html#ch5 , check out that website, it explains that a restoration is not an expensive task at all. I always say, Lucas burned us, and now that he's out of the picture I don't think we have to worry about it anymore. I honestly think there's more demand for the unaltered films than there is for the Special Editions, even non-fans know about the changes in the Special Editions. A good marketing campaign could easily build hype surrounding the release. Also, Disney has no emotional attachment to the Special Editions. The ONLY reason (Lucas lied about it being expensive or impossible) the OOT wasn't released was because he wanted the Special Editions to replace the originals. Disney doesn't want that, and if they see demand for something they'll release it. Fox wanted Lucasfilm to release the OOT for years, it was just George that was standing in the way of that. I have no doubt we'll see the OOT in some form eventually

 

[TravisR]

I honestly think there's more demand for the unaltered films than there is for the Special Editions, even non-fans know about the changes in the Special Editions.

I think you're greatly overestimating the average person's interest or knowledge about the changes made to Star Wars. I doubt few 'normal' people remember and even less care after 17 years. That's not to say that the people that do care (a group which includes me) isn't large enough to make Disney money when/if they release the originals but outside of old fans, not too many people are concerned.

In the end, it's kind of an irrelevant discussion anyway because if Disney does release the originals, they'll be included with the SEs to avoid consumer confusion.

 

[gizzy2000]

Oh, I don't care if they include the SE's. I prefer that they do actually just so that everything is in the same set. The unaltered Star Wars films are a very sought after release, they'd make money on it. Think about movies like blade runner and Aliens that have different versions happily coexisting on the same disc, and those movies are not as huge as Star Wars. I think Lucasfilm will include an HD unaltered trilogy in their next blu ray release (probably leading up to Episode VII), simply because it won't cost them much, and the added group of people that buy it because of the unaltered films being included more than makes up for it. It also builds good will towards the Star Wars name because it would shut up the most vocal group of Star Wars fans. Also, back in 2006 a petition to release the unaltered films got over 75,000 signatures and that's the reason why Lucas released the insulting laserdisc port. There's definitely a market; if people can persuade Lucas, the man who said he wants the Special Edition to be the only version of Star Wars, to release the films (as awful as that release was) then surely a company who just wants to sell things will release them.

 

[FoxyMulder]

It's possible and for a reasonable cost (Lucas was lying when he told us all that the negatives were destroyed), http://savestarwars.com/filmpreservation.html#ch5 , check out that website, it explains that a restoration is not an expensive task at all. I always say, Lucas burned us, and now that he's out of the picture I don't think we have to worry about it anymore.

It's a good read but i think an 8K scan for 35mm film would be overkill, i think they would do a 4K scan.

 

[Kevin EK]

There may be some unintentional humor in the Save Star Wars suggestions to Lucasfilm on how to restore their movies and how much money to spend on them. The person who wrote that apparently thinks that Lucasfilm might consider spending a million dollars to do restoration work on the original cuts of the trilogy. As a compromise, the person suggests they spend 100 thousand dollars. I honestly don't know how more simply I can say this: Disney and Lucasfilm are not going to spend that kind of time and money on the theatrical cuts. It would be great if they wanted to, but that's not going to happen. Unrealistically expecting them to do it tends to result in fans getting really, really frustrated to no useful end. I think it's more pragmatic to think in terms that are far less grand. Malcolm is absolutely correct that they would not be performing an 8K scan. That kind of scan is done with larger negatives, such as with Lawrence. If a 4K scan were to be contemplated, it would be of the versions that George Lucas has repeatedly said are the ones he wants preserved. I'll be happy if they just provide the originals in HD, regardless of the rest. I agree it will make a nice marketing addition to have them included. I don't agree with the Save Star Wars writer that this would somehow generate big dollars. Including the originals will get some attention from the curious, and possibly appease some of the fans who've been requesting it. But then we'll see all the complaints from the people who don't like the sound mix, and the people who don't think the color is right, and the people who don't like seeing those pesky boxes in the VFX shots, and the people who are mad that Disney didn't spend a million dollars on 8K transfers, etc....

 

[gizzy2000]

I agree that as long as they're in HD and look acceptable I'll be fine, but I highly doubt that the amount of people complaining about color and boxes would be anywhere close to the hate Lucas got for not making the originals available.

 

[hanshotfirst1138]

There may be some unintentional humor in the Save Star Wars suggestions to Lucasfilm on how to restore their movies and how much money to spend on them. The person who wrote that apparently thinks that Lucasfilm might consider spending a million dollars to do restoration work on the original cuts of the trilogy. As a compromise, the person suggests they spend 100 thousand dollars.I honestly don't know how more simply I can say this: Disney and Lucasfilm are not going to spend that kind of time and money on the theatrical cuts. It would be great if they wanted to, but that's not going to happen. Unrealistically expecting them to do it tends to result in fans getting really, really frustrated to no useful end. I think it's more pragmatic to think in terms that are far less grand.Malcolm is absolutely correct that they would not be performing an 8K scan. That kind of scan is done with larger negatives, such as with Lawrence. If a 4K scan were to be contemplated, it would be of the versions that George Lucas has repeatedly said are the ones he wants preserved. I'll be happy if they just provide the originals in HD, regardless of the rest. I agree it will make a nice marketing addition to have them included. I don't agree with the Save Star Wars writer that this would somehow generate big dollars. Including the originals will get some attention from the curious, and possibly appease some of the fans who've been requesting it. But then we'll see all the complaints from the people who don't like the sound mix, and the people who don't think the color is right, and the people who don't like seeing those pesky boxes in the VFX shots, and the people who are mad that Disney didn't spend a million dollars on 8K transfers, etc....

This is blunt, but sadly probably all too true. Yes, Lucas was the obstacle in that he didn't want them to, but he hacked up the negatives and made a mess so badly that even if it is possible, it'd probably consume far more money than would be profitable for Disney. I'd love to believe my fellow OOT fans that there's still a market, but it's probably a small one. I suppose I'd be happier with something that is at least not the non-anamorphic crap that we got last time, but I'd still hate to be placated with something which wasn't the real deal, but it's probably the best we'd get. And that's not even counting the number of sound mixes there've been, and there's plenty of space on a Blu-Ray disc for those. 4K is how all major 35mm restorations should be done, but as you say, if they do one, it damn sure won't be for the original cuts. I think 8K is for 70mm. I did actually see a DCP (and a very disappointing-looking one, it must be said, but that's another topic) of The Ten Commandments which had 6K restoration credits at the end though. Maybe because it was VistaVision? I know lots of film proponents argue for the resolution of film, but even they're going to be going down swinging soon .

I agree that as long as they're in HD and look acceptable I'll be fine, but I highly doubt that the amount of people complaining about color and boxes would be anywhere close to the hate Lucas got for not making the originals available.

What is "acceptable" though? Maybe I'm simply deluding myself, but I've always maintained that what we're talking about here isn't just to do with the fanboy love for the originals. There's a major issue of film history here. These are arguably the three most important and influential movies ever made, and some of the FX work is so groundbreaking. Obviously, as the creator, Lucas has the legal right to what he does (as he does on THX 1138 and American Graffiti, both of which are never getting preserved), but I think that an "acceptable" restoration still isn't much consolation to film history.

It's possible and for a reasonable cost (Lucas was lying when he told us all that the negatives were destroyed), http://savestarwars.com/filmpreservation.html#ch5 , check out that website, it explains that a restoration is not an expensive task at all. I always say, Lucas burned us, and now that he's out of the picture I don't think we have to worry about it anymore. I honestly think there's more demand for the unaltered films than there is for the Special Editions, even non-fans know about the changes in the Special Editions. A good marketing campaign could easily build hype surrounding the release. Also, Disney has no emotional attachment to the Special Editions. The ONLY reason (Lucas lied about it being expensive or impossible) the OOT wasn't released was because he wanted the Special Editions to replace the originals. Disney doesn't want that, and if they see demand for something they'll release it. Fox wanted Lucasfilm to release the OOT for years, it was just George that was standing in the way of that. I have no doubt we'll see the OOT in some form eventually

"Some form," maybe. Which form remains to be seen, and when too. I'm not getting any younger.

 

[Bryan Tuck]

I know we're kind of running around in circles here, but I think there's a difference between settling for the current SSSEs and not being interested in the originals. I don't have any market research to back this up, but there's probably a sizable number of people who went ahead and bought the current Blu-rays, but who would still be interested in a copy of the originals if they were made available.

And again, I would love a full-blown, painstaking restoration, but I would also settle for a straightforward, fresh scan presented with the current standard of quality given to general catalog Blu-ray titles. I just don't understand how it could be cost-prohibitive to give the original Star Wars trilogy the time and attention that, say, Warner gave to Clash of the Titans or Outland.

And this is also complete speculation, but I feel that if Disney/Fox were actually prohibited from releasing the originals in any form as part of the Lucasfilm sale, we would have heard that definitively by now. The fact that there's been no official word about it suggests that it's at least being discussed.

 

[andySu]

Still prefer STAR WARS on laserdisc.

 

[gizzy2000]

And this is also complete speculation, but I feel that if Disney/Fox were actually prohibited from releasing the originals in any form as part of the Lucasfilm sale, we would have heard that definitively by now. The fact that there's been no official word about it suggests that it's at least being discussed.

I agree. I also think that if Disney were not allowed to release the unaltered films, they'd have just made a statement saying they couldn't, or the information would've been "leaked" (they'd have no reason to keep that a secret) some other way. Also, I'm not naive enough to think that the unaltered films would be some record breaking blu ray release, but some people seem to think that they wouldn't sell at all. Remember, this is Star Wars we're talking about, and look at the films that do get blu ray releases, to say that the original Star Wars movies wouldn't sell well is just kind of ridiculous, since they've been demanded for years; a petition got over 70,000 signatures back when Lucas owned it (which prompted Lucas of all people to release the terrible laserdisc port). Also, just because people are willing to put up with the Special Editions does NOT mean that they have no desire to see the originals again.

 

[Kevin EK]

Disney's lack of comment about this matter should not be interpreted to mean that they are somehow discussing or working on plans to deal with the theatrical cuts of these movies. The lack of comment may simply mean that there is nothing to discuss - that they're not working on anything. On the other hand, if they do start to plan for a Blu-ray release that includes the theatrical cuts as a bonus, I'm positive that we'll see Disney and Lucasfilm openly discuss it - it would be a marketing strategy.

I agree that including the theatrical cuts as a secondary plus on a new release of the Blus of the original trilogy would be a nice way to promote getting fans to buy the movies for the 2nd time on Blu-ray. I also agree that including those cuts as bonuses would be a good way toward motivating some of the people who signed onto that petition to shell out the money for the Blu-rays. And I agree that people living with the current special editions does not imply that those people somehow don't want to see the movies as originally presented. But we should also acknowledge that even after such a release of the original versions occurred, we would see a plethora of criticism - saying that Lucasfilm should have included this or that sound mix, or that Lucasfilm went cheap on the scan, etc...

 

[Clinton McClure]

Having an HD transfer of the OOT as an extra would be the only way I would buy the Lucasized SE versions on Blu. Even then, the special editions would never be played.

 

[TravisR]

Disney's lack of comment about this matter should not be interpreted to mean that they are somehow discussing or working on plans to deal with the theatrical cuts of these movies.

Yep. They haven't talked about re-releasing the SEs either but I'd bet my life that they plan on doing that at some point in time.

 

[hanshotfirst1138]

Still prefer STAR WARS on laserdisc.

Blank me, do you have a nice home system! Shame I never got into LD.

 

[Dave H]

I thought I would pass this information along. Marc Wielage, who worked on the 2004 Star Wars masters, and has 35 years of video mastering experience within the industry (also having worked for Technicolor and Kodak), recently commented on AVS to my question of whether he had any knowledge of any 4K Star Wars work. I won't post the link as I am not sure if that is allowed here, but he replied to me. To my knowledge, no -- it was all 2K. Note that Episodes 2 and 3 were all shot on HD with 2K visual effects, and none of the VFX in any of the Star Wars films were more than 2K. Some of the early digital stuff in the 1990s wasn't even HD.It's an interesting thought as to whether they'd consider rescanning 100% of the live-action film footage in Star Wars and recomping all the VFX in 4K. That would be a monstrous expense -- I'm guessing as much as $20M -- so my gut feeling is it's not gonna happen. People get very wrapped up in 4K, but I'm not convinced it's the be-all / end-all. I think 4K can look great, and I'm all for people shooting in this format, but the post process for 4K is so torturous and expensive, I'm not sure if the world is ready for it yet. I think it can work, but when you're looking at a project with upwards of 1200 visual effects, and each one takes 2 or 3 days to bounce around to different facilities (in 2K)... multiply that times 4 and tell me what it does to the schedule. Having said that: there are more and more TV shows shooting in 4K. Sony showed some 4K demos of The Blacklistback in April at NAB, and I thought it looked fantastic. But that's not a show with 200 effects per episode.

 

[Joel Fontenot]

I thought I would pass this information along. Marc Wielage, who worked on the 2004 Star Wars masters, and has 35 years of video mastering experience within the industry (also having worked for Technicolor and Kodak), recently commented on AVS to my question of whether he had any knowledge of any 4K Star Wars work. I won't post the link as I am not sure if that is allowed here, but he replied to me. To my knowledge, no -- it was all 2K. Note that Episodes 2 and 3 were all shot on HD with 2K visual effects, and none of the VFX in any of the Star Wars films were more than 2K. Some of the early digital stuff in the 1990s wasn't even HD.It's an interesting thought as to whether they'd consider rescanning 100% of the live-action film footage in Star Wars and recomping all the VFX in 4K. That would be a monstrous expense -- I'm guessing as much as $20M -- so my gut feeling is it's not gonna happen. People get very wrapped up in 4K, but I'm not convinced it's the be-all / end-all. I think 4K can look great, and I'm all for people shooting in this format, but the post process for 4K is so torturous and expensive, I'm not sure if the world is ready for it yet. I think it can work, but when you're looking at a project with upwards of 1200 visual effects, and each one takes 2 or 3 days to bounce around to different facilities (in 2K)... multiply that times 4 and tell me what it does to the schedule. Having said that: there are more and more TV shows shooting in 4K. Sony showed some 4K demos of The Blacklistback in April at NAB, and I thought it looked fantastic. But that's not a show with 200 effects per episode.

Why does he even say anything about "re-compositing". I don't know the original question, but we are talking about scanning the original cuts of 4, 5 & 6 in their original forms, as is (well, with judicious post-scanning clean up and proper color correction, of course). I couldn't care less about how 1, 2 & 3 were shot.

 

[FoxyMulder]

I thought I would pass this information along. Marc Wielage, who worked on the 2004 Star Wars masters, and has 35 years of video mastering experience within the industry (also having worked for Technicolor and Kodak), recently commented on AVS to my question of whether he had any knowledge of any 4K Star Wars work. I won't post the link as I am not sure if that is allowed here, but he replied to me. To my knowledge, no -- it was all 2K. Note that Episodes 2 and 3 were all shot on HD with 2K visual effects, and none of the VFX in any of the Star Wars films were more than 2K. Some of the early digital stuff in the 1990s wasn't even HD.It's an interesting thought as to whether they'd consider rescanning 100% of the live-action film footage in Star Wars and recomping all the VFX in 4K. That would be a monstrous expense -- I'm guessing as much as $20M -- so my gut feeling is it's not gonna happen. People get very wrapped up in 4K, but I'm not convinced it's the be-all / end-all. I think 4K can look great, and I'm all for people shooting in this format, but the post process for 4K is so torturous and expensive, I'm not sure if the world is ready for it yet. I think it can work, but when you're looking at a project with upwards of 1200 visual effects, and each one takes 2 or 3 days to bounce around to different facilities (in 2K)... multiply that times 4 and tell me what it does to the schedule. Having said that: there are more and more TV shows shooting in 4K. Sony showed some 4K demos of The Blacklistback in April at NAB, and I thought it looked fantastic. But that's not a show with 200 effects per episode.

My opinion is that they have started work, that it's top secret and it's been removed from that site.

I think $20m dollars is nothing compared to what these films have made and will continue to make, i don't think it's worth re-doing the effects work for the last two films as they are forever stuck in 2K land so why bother with 4K CGI, not worth it, in my opinion The Phantom Menace is the one showing it's age with regards the resolution of the CGI and since it was also shot on 35mm film it's the one which would benefit from re-doing the CGI and re-scanning at 4K, you gotta anticipate a 4K and above future.

I'm not sure how it works with the original trilogy films but 4K scans would be worth it for preservation alone.

 

[Dave H]

I have a hard time believing the cost could be that high. I still stand by my initial belief that 4K work is or has been done for these (whether in SE or original incarnations). The images on the Radiance site images being taken down along with the employee's "4K Blu Star Wars" profile work being removed are too blatant IMO.