Citizen Kane (1 Viewer)

[george kaplan]

Well that didn't help me Jack. I used your criteria and the top film comes out to be The Apartment. Citizen Kane came in at number four, after the Godfather and Casablanca.

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13-time NBA world champion Lakers: 1949, 1950, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1972, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2000, 2001

 

[Seth Paxton]

Dome, you aren't in Indiana by any chance are you?
I'm in a film class and we are also using Film Art as the text. We just watched Kane a few weeks ago in class.
You might recognize some of my next comments as stuff that is discussed in that book also...
Something else that I think Welles was one of the first to use and help perfect, if not the innovater of -
the lightening mix - using audio links between 2 very different scenes especially to time compress.
2 great examples from Kane
1) Merry Xmas...and a Happy New Year, bridging some 15 years of Kane's life (and showing us Kane's animosity for Thatcher).
2) The political campaign as Leland's speech is carried on by Kane with a clever cut. The applause is also used to link us from the beginnings of a campaign to the final moments with Kane's rousing speech. First there is only himself clapping for his 2nd wife, this switches to a small crowd applauding Leland in mid-speech, and this switches to the huge crowd applauding Kane mid-speech.
Now you see that device used in something like Pulp Fiction in which we leave the credits (and it turns out, we go back in time from the opening sequence) and cut to Travolta/Jackson by hearing the title song changed on a radio dial during the opening credits. We soon find out is a radio in their car.
That's the sort of influence Kane has on film. Before DePalma was utilizing amazingly deep-focus in something like Blow Out, there was Kane and Toland.
BTW, did any of you see the PBS special on Sam Goldwyn? Really amazing stuff. Credit him with really helping foster Gregg Toland's career. Goldwyn lost a LOT of Oscars to Louis B. Mayer before finally winning with Best Years of Our Lives. Losing with films like The Little Foxes (Toland) and Wuthering Heights (Toland).
Made me much more appreciative of Goldwyn. I'd always thought he was just an egomaniac jerk (which he could be). Turns out he was quite a fighter and behind a lot of great films in the 30's and 40'.
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[Robert Crawford]

Made me much more appreciative of Goldwyn. I'd always thought he was just an egomaniac jerk (which he could be). Turns out he was quite a fighter and behind a lot of great films in the 30's and 40'.

Seth,
Goldwyn, always recognized great talent and Wyler/Toland production team was an intregal part of his film productions. Almost all of the films, mentioned in my earlier post had the words "Samuel Goldwyn Presents" at the beginning of them.
Crawdaddy
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[Dome Vongvises]

Dome, you aren't in Indiana by any chance are you?

Nope, but I'm just across the river in old Cantucky

I truly believe that if you want to develop a better appreciation for films, Film Art: An Introduction isn't a bad start. It certainly pointed me to things in Citizen Kane I've never seen before. Seth's comments also helped of course.
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My DVD Collection

 

[JohnRice]

Jack,
I'm afraid there is just no way to objectively rate a film. Your list of "objective criteria" are clearly subjective.
This is an outstanding film, though. I remember coming out of the theater with chills the first time I saw it. I was very fortunate to be able to see it on film and a very good copy the first time I saw it while I was in Photography School.

 

[Jack Briggs]

Somebody help me out here, please.
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[Dave Weisbord]

Jack,
Don't know how much I can help you out. I too agree that Citizen Kane is the greatest film of all time. I've had the same opinion since the 1st time I saw the firm, some 30 years ago. However, I know of no objective criteria to rate any art form.
OTOH, I suppose you could make the argument that since Kane has been listed as "The Greatest Film of all Time" by so many critics, historians, polls, AFI, etc. over so many decades, then one might use that as an "objective" criteria.
Now to change the subject, what's the DVD like? I haven't purchased it yet.
Dave

 

[Jack Briggs]

The DVD boxset is fabulous--a must-have. Get it now.
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[RobertR]

I'm also sympathetic to what you're saying, Jack, but it really is extremely difficult (impossible?) to objectively state that a work of art is the greatest.
I watched the DVD last night. Other than some noticeable EE in certain scenes, the PQ is damn near impeccable. Kudos to Warner.
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[Richard RogersBerry]

I know that he is sort of a "love him or hate him" sort of guy, but the commentary by Roger Ebert on the Kane disk is a wonderful addition. For anyone who loves film but didn't get to study it in school, it teaches you alot and really places the accomplishments of this film in context.
P.S. I loved his commentary for Dark City as well!
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Ric
And the Book says, "We may be through with the past; but the past isn't through with us."-J.G.

 

[Travis D]

I rented this last night and I must say I enjoyed it the first time, but after watching the documentary I must say it really gets my respect now. Too bad Orson Welles never got the chance to do something like that again. Maybe things would have been different in a day and age like this, but who knows.
And one more thing. In the first 5 minuts of the movie a little bit of my childhood memory kicked in (I'm 17) and "Rosebud" was spoiled by the DAMN Ghostbusters episode! I went through the whole movie wondering when it was going to be explained and sure enough, I knew exactley what it was.
Although it really is heartwarming in the episode after you've seen the movie.
Spoiler:You see the Charles Foster Kane ghost riding on his beloved "Rosebud" sleigh and in a Welles voice shouting "Weeeee!"
And that was enough to ruin Citizen Kane for me. Oh Well.

 

[Edwin-S]

Wouldn't "Rosebud" just be a metaphor for something Kane was searching for but would never be able find because he never really had one......his childhood? Just asking, or am I using the term metaphor incorrectly?
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[george kaplan]

Wouldn't "Rosebud" just be a metaphor for something Kane was searching for but would never be able find because he never really had one......his childhood?

Well, actually rosebud William Randolph Hearst's (the real Kane) nickname for something he searched for and presumably did find, something located between Marion Davies legs. It was just one more dig by Welles at Hearst.
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13-time NBA world champion Lakers: 1949, 1950, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1972, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2000, 2001

 

[RobertR]

LOL I've heard that too, George. But within the context of the film Edwin's analysis sounds pretty good to me.
By the way, I was watching Spartacus last week, and it was obvious that part of it was filmed at the Hearst Castle (which I've been to). Some of the "newsreel" scenes in Kane looked like shots of the Hearst Castle, too.
[Edited last by RobertR on October 13, 2001 at 06:29 PM]

 

[Robert Crawford]

Well, actually rosebud William Randolph Hearst's (the real Kane) nickname for something he searched for and presumably did find, something located between Marion Davies legs. It was just one more dig by Welles at Hearst.

George,
Actually the part about Rosebud and it's hidden relation to Hearst/Davies was written by Herman Mankiewicz. Mankiewicz was a personal friend and drinking partner of Davies before the making of "Citizen Kane". Besides being the older brother of the gifted writer/director Joseph Mankiewicz, Herman, who came to Hollywood just before the end of the silent era was a very gifted writer himself but wasted much of his talent and opportunity because of personal problems. He won two AA's for writing, which of course includes one for "Citizen Kane". Some film historians actually felt that Herman contributed the best dialogue of the screenplay.
Crawdaddy
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Peter Staddon: "I didn't say you can put 'Monkeybone' back!"

 

[Charlie_M]

Having just bought the DVD and also having just seen the movie for the first time, I'd like to say that I think this movie really does live up to its
reputation. The DVD is for the most part an excellent package with the highlights for me being a beautiful picture for such an old movie and also Ebert's fascinating commentary.
I had only two problems with it:
1. Bogdanovich's terribly boring commentary. He left quite a few long gaps of silence and frequently narrated what was happening on screen.
2. Many loud popping sounds during the documentary - I thought my speakers' connections were failing but I found a thread on this board where other people reported the same problem.
And yes, that damn Ghostbusters episode that I saw probably around a decade ago spoiled the end for me, too!
Also...objective standards for cinematic greatness? Hee hee! Funny stuff.
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[Aaron Reynolds]

If we had genuinely objective standards for judging cinematic greatness, IBM's Deep Blue could create the greatest film of all time as easily as it could defeat Kasparov. It could weigh billions of possible next frames and judge them each with those criteria, making the perfect selection each time!
Dear Lord, imagine if DreamWorks hooked up their Shrek computers to Deep Blue! Move over, Rosebud!

Part of the appeal of Kane that is harder to appreciate now is just how groundbreaking it was, technically. I mean, we're used to extreme flexibility in camera movement, and detailed, multilayered sound mixes.
I too bought Kane before I had seen it...I bought the original Criterion CAV LaserDisc of it when I was 16. Haven't regretted it for a second. The jacket is really quite scuffed from constant sliding on and off of the shelf.
Another Criterion disc that helped me to more deeply appreciate Welles' use of audio was Theater of the Imagination, an LD with about six hours of old Mercury Theater radio broadcasts. Definitely worth a spin.

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

Calling Citizen Kane the greatest film ever made is most certainly not a matter of "personal taste." There are certain objective cirteria by which films are judged. And it just so happens that Citizen Kane comes out on top when all those criteria are factored in.

I can't believe Jack said this. I always thought he said 2001 was the greatest film.....

 

[Lars Vermundsberget]

I more and more tend to think that there really is no such thing as "objectivity" in a field that requires human perception and judgment. The closest one can get is a high degree of "inter-subjectivity" among somewhat educated people. In that respect, I'd say Citizen Kane is still standing.

 

[Jon_Are]

Here are some objective criteria:
* direction, cinematography story/script/plot/dialogue, characterization/character development, acting/performances, and cinematic technique

Jack,
Please, please tell me you're kidding. If not, do yourself a favor and look up the terms 'objective' and 'subjective' in the nearest dictionary. Do it now.
...and I think CK is one of the greatest films ever created (subjectively speaking, of course).
Jon
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