Can someone help a non-technical gal with set-up? (1 Viewer)

[Terri M]

Thanks for clearing that up.
My final design has the center speaker below the LCD screen. It's about
31" off the floor. That's not too bad. I can tilt it up as suggested.
Ear level seems to be about 36" - 49". My left and right speakers will be at the right height due to adustable shelves.

I kept the left bookcase and right bookcase flush with the tv cabinet so the sound doesn't bouce off the center cabinet.

I think I'm doing well with the entertainment center now that I know the subw
is placed on the floor in the room. I don't seem to mind that.

Any advice on buying rebuilt receivers?

Terri

 

[Mary M S]

There's B-stock. (manuf. selling units returned during the trial period)
I purchased my "SVS" Subw and a 5-channel amp from "OUTLAW AUDIO" both as "B" stock. You deal direct with manuf., and have an original warranty.
The only issue this discount is a slice off the top, not near the deep reduction of a 'used' unit sold by individual. For B stock purchases to be in your range you'd want to look at >500 retail?

Here at HTF there is a gear for sale thread, If I was to purchase via that route, (no offense members) I'd do an in-depth search on the individuals prior posts, to see how long and well established the member is in the (or any) forum. Many AV enthusiasts (on sites like these) will turn their gear within a year or two, if (as early adopters) some new feature catches their eye. The best, to have a dear friend who does this, and stick your hand up when he is selling his gear! Many of the early adopter types also take extremely good care of their components, so this source for purchase would normally be 'gently' used.

If you start looking at 'closeout' model pricing, Jimmy in a earlier post had a link for a higher end location (may be priced out of range) but worth a look [It's a site which has been around for years], and also mentioned the yahoo search plugging in a particular etc, which will give you the closeout price on new models via several web retailers of one item.

The internet only sellers like SVS, and Outlaw Audio, you will often find older models of those brands, traded and sold in the Gear section of the AV forums.
Vs e-bay - I would much prefer buying from a long term member of one of the established forums. (I'm scared of ebay, though I've seen many members comment positively on purchases made that route, it would be my luck to run into the scam)
I believe Outlaw allows posting in their forum of used Outlaw gear, but I never used to see anything come up very often. I don't think SVS has its own forum?
So that would be one route, look for an "owners forum" if you settle on one particular manuf.

 

[Terri M]

I'm back with questions.

Now don't get excited thinking I'm a wealth of knowledge. I'm afraid my learning curve is advancing at a snail's pace.

My progress:

1. I'm looking at internet direct companies for my speakers.
I really liked the customer service of SVS. I still have some others to check out.

2. I've increased my budget. I would now like to stay in the $2600 range and if need be up to $3000 but it will kill me because I have a house that needs furnishing.

3. I'm trying to pick a receiver. I need 100w per channel according to some sources.

I have receiver questions. I am reading reviews on the most popular units.
I have an HDMi/1080p display so I'm guessing the receiver should be able to support this.

Can anyone suggest a receiver that won't break the budget with these capabilities? And is the upconversion really important?

I'm looking at: Yamaha RX-V2600, Pioneer VSX-82TXS, Denon AVR-2807 and 2808 not out yet. Onkyo TX-SR805.

4. I'm going to get the Oppo DVD player DV-981HD

Terri

 

[bassman99floyd]

You picked some very nice receivers to choose from. I have an older model of the Pioneer, and I'm very satisfied with what I have. I would pick the Pioneer from your list as well. You won't be disappointed.

 

[Bluzman]

You may also want to consider the Sony STR-DG1000. It's feature rich, gets good reviews (e.g., http://reviews.cnet.com/Sony_STR_DG1...-31901245.html) and shares the build quality and many components (power supplies, etc) with Sony's more exclusive ES AVR line but without the ES "badging".

 

[Terri M]

Bump:

Mary where are you?

I can't decide which speakers to pick. Can anyone sway me one way or the other.

SVS bookshelf or AV123 (bookshelf rockets)

I like the fact that AV123 has a real wood finish.

I'll have to purchase and try them out. No way I can hear them anywhere.

Thanks everyone for your input I'm taking it all in. Not overwhelmed yet.

Terri

 

[Terri M]

Sony Receiver: If my display is a Sony is it better to have a sony receiver?

Thanks for the link bluzman.

 

[Mary M S]

Mary where are you?

EEK!!! just this second saw this...let me read up ... and I'll reply.

 

[Bob McElfresh]

Well... you picked some good receiver brands but you could go down to a 80-90 watt unit.

A self-powered subwoofer takes away a lot of the power demands. While a music system tries to make things sound good in the farthest corner of a room, a Home Theater speaker array surrounds 1-3 chairs with speakers that tend to point at the listeners. With this type of focus - lots of power is not really needed.

A more powerful receiver is 'nicer' and 'better' for some secondary reasons, but not essential with monitor-style speakers and a modest room.

Here is what I would look for:

- A receiver should have at least 2 HDMI inputs. Bonus if it has more.
- Stick with the Yamaha or Denon brands.
- See if the receiver lets you jump straight to a input. (Necessary for a smart remote)
- See if the receiver will up-convert analog (component, SVideo) to the HDMI output. Bonus if it does this.
- If everything else is equal between 2 receivers, buy the heavier one. (Heavier means larger transformer = cooler operation = longer lasting).

No - it's not better to have a "sony" receiver for a "sony" TV. The only thing that is critical to match are your 5 speakers. They should all be from the same manufacturer and tone-matched models. The sub and all the electronics can be mixed.

THE PRICE ISSUE:

You have picked out some well-respected makes and models for your sub, receiver, television. Kudos. I wish all our new members did as much research.

However - if money is an issue, there are several alternatives.

Time and time again, we have setup systems for our friends & family or read the hints in "Home Theater" magazine that tell us the quiet secret: A budget-but-well setup HTIB can give a fantastic HT experience.

I bought the $699 Denon system from Best Buy for my daughter last Christmas. In February, "Home Theater" magazine did an article with this exact same unit and praised it, then proceeded to show how you could swap the components in/out. (A good HTIB comes with all the parts separate and compatible with stand-alone components).

If money is an issue, I would recommend getting this, or a similar priced HTIB. You may not ever need to upgrade anything. It's a very nice system. But for an upgrade path I would:

- Upgrade the sub to an SVS. Nothing in the sound impresses more than a smooth, powerful bass for movies.

- Upgrade the DVD player to a HD-DVD or BluRay player when you decide to jump on one side of the format war. (Heck, my daughter bought a PS/3 so she has a game system, a DVD player and a BluRay player all in one).

- Upgrade the 5 speakers later, only if you start to play music a lot and find that the HTIB speakers are lacking. Music is where the less-accurate speakers show their flaws. They work great for movies, but not for music.

- Upgrade the receiver only if you need more HDMI inputs.

(That dennon HTIB - the receiver has 2 HDMI inputs and I believe it will convert SVideo and Component feeds to the HDMI output so you only run 1 wire to the TV).

Hope this helps and does not confuse.

 

[Bluzman]

Bob makes many good points. Let me suggest, however, that you apply the same amount of "due diligence" in selecting the receiver that you have on all the other pieces of your system. Don't shorten your list of AV receiver brands until you've done this. There are many other resources to help you - e.g., http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=90 BTW, Yamaha, Pioneer, Denon, Onkyo, Sony and others all have models that have the features that Bob listed. Remember that even though it's generally accepted that speakers get the lion's share of the HT budget, you shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the receiver is what determines the quality of what gets sent to those speakers.

Bob's also correct that nicely equipped component-style HTIBs can provide a good HT experience. However, as a current HTIB owner who's in the process of moving to separates, I can tell you that sooner rather than later you'll want to start on that list of "upgrades" he provided. My advice? Don't hesitate to "go for it" now if the budget allows.

 

[Mary M S]

Terri, I don't how much you 'want' to know, so I'll spit this all out (probably incoherently) hopefully not incorrectly.
When shopping receivers.
Good: A receiver or amplifier that is listed as being capable of driving a 4-Ohm load
Bad: Seeing a warning not to use the receiver with a speaker that has less than an 8-Ohm rating.

Look for specs on the receivers you are considering if they detail
power at Ohms.
For example:
80 watts into 8-Ohms
100 watts into 6-Ohms

If any of the products you are researching only state watts at 8-Ohms, I'd rate higher any of your short list of receivers which give a list of watts over more than the 8-Ohm range.

8 & 4 Ohms, both represent different types of stress on an amplifier, the power portion of your receiver. But one - early on rule of thumb -
if the speakers are rated 4-Ohms go with the receiver which has more watts.

Just looked, - at the bookshelf's on your speaker list
8-Ohms impedance.
Speaker Efficiency/Sensitivity looks close between them (85 to 87 dB spread)
Since one lists 1watt@1 meter, and the other - no distance given - it is not a complete apples to apple picture when trying to gauge how much difference in efficiency between the two.

Rule of Thumb: Good = Speakers having higher effency or sensitivity numbers.
(90dB is better than 80dB.)
(Helps reduce your amps work load.)

Frequency Response:
The AV123 x-is has the better "spec" with
55Hz to 20Khz
Vs the
SVS sbs-01
68Hz - 20 kHz

During my own shopping, after my first speaker purchase, Frenquency Response ratings now receive only the briefest glance from me, as this spec does not have relation to what I will think of the quality of sound during a demo!

Please remember what I say next works for me, (not necessarily anyones else personal taste!)

I found when I was demoing speakers for a few months that I could pick out all the speakers which had silk dome tweeters.

Invariably, demoing two products side by side, one with any other material for a tweeter (ferro-cooled, poly-whatever)
100% of the time, - I preferred the silk domes.
I would point, asking the salesperson, "That one has a silk dome, that one does not, correct?"
(sometimes they'd have to go look it up. But I never mixed it up.)

My ear prefers the silk domes, for it seems to play a part in the fact that speakers which include it have high frequencies which are clearer and less strident for however my ear hears!

I researched the SVS "ClearSilk TM" it does not appear to be fabric (though the name indicates otherwise) it looks in a pic, - as if it is a poly material.

The AV123 lists a 'fabric' tweeter, so between those two (I) would be inclined to order in the AV's first for an at home demo.

____________

Whole can of worms, I don't know how to (shortly ) explain.
I notice the price of the receivers you mention lies in the range of the Outlaw Audio receiver. I have loved my Outlaw products, and their customer service. I am not up on the current crops, so am at a disadvantage to give you any thoughts I have, other than some general.
I like what is called lots of 'headroom' in my power, so nominally I'd always prefer 100 watts over 60 or 80. I purchased separates for this reason ...(but have floor-stander mains).

Specs are fudged, played with, (listed very optimistically), and manipulated to look their best for any electronic product.
"They are sort of a guideline" (in my best Barbossa voice)

One thing I noted about Outlaws receiver (the older model 1050) during its heyday, back when I purchased a 950 from them, - the 1050 whomped the pants off many receivers in the power department which had much larger (wattage) ratings. (how the amp produces its power is important, with all speakers driven at a higher dB's) Many things effect every day usage, for instance the resistance to an amplifier a speaker produces - does not remain static (a constant 8-Ohms if the speaker is rated at 8-Ohms), - but can vary (move to 6-Ohms) at different frequencies it is reproducing.
Outlaws listed watts, back then were heavily underrated by them (with room to spare) beating out in real performance, the larger rated wattage performance of many of its peers.
I simply have no idea without researching - if such is the case with their current crop vs any other models.

Secondly, do not get hung up by preferring anything rated THX.
Any manuf. (if building reputably), can easily meet or beat the specs required. Having your product certified THX actually takes away a (probably small) percentage of monies which could have been applied to higher quality parts, as it is paid out in royalties for the certification.

The Last (we could be here all night if I tried to explain fully)
HDMI vs DVI etc, In a perfect - things actually work - sort of world way - I'd say pick an HDMI equipped unit over a DVI only unit any day. But the real world has taught me otherwise, currently I don't value that interface at all! But then I am not in the market to upgrade this and that.


I have DVI on my display and HDMI on my HD STB (which.. broke).
HDMI (near as I can tell, on many products, for a certain amount of consumers - breaks ALOT, has handshake issues etc) It's another nightmare foisted by Copy Protection issues, wrapped in the allure of greater bandwidth and 'deep color'.
And the bandwidth while usable on a DVD, will not gain me squat if my subcribed service (satellite) is bottlenecking it.

Currently if I was to jump into an HD DVD player, I could work around not having a functioning HDMI, (or HDMI on all my components) and have full capability (including (I'm vague on this) many or most? of the sound codecs (I think?) using my analog cables to my pre-pro (a receiver with a separate amp.)

I won't jump to an HDcapable DVD player now. I'm irritated with the format war, irritated with Copy Protection and HDMI which leaves me in the position of having feeds disabled or downrezed if anyone decides they don't want the HD signal traveling via my (good ole dependable) component cables.

I adore the HD I have (even the lite...but not the stretched ) want more, can't wait till every source I receive is (at min) 720p with a nice high bit rate. But right now (stubbornly I admit) I refuse to jump into what I feel is a very leaky ship.
I don't wish to support products which ignore the issues HDMI and the like bring to the every day consumers who just want their gear to communicate (to full capable performance levels) dependably. HDMI (as a spec) recently launched a new version 1.3, Check me on this, but there is no guarantee that your HDMI version (your likely) purchase today, will fully work with or pass what other HDMI products version?? does tomorrow.

If you have time it's very good to do research into these kinds of specs and interfaces. Sales people will state, THX (great) HDMI (future proof), they are not even giving you the barest inkling of the 'complete' story.
Edit: while typing I see Bob post, and Bob is absolutely right, I should not confuse you with all the above!
Definitely go with Bob's recommendations on HDMI.
(I hesitate to even hit the send button since he arrived. )
Unfortunately HDMI (version) 1.3 is currently the rising 'required' connection, as more products launch
(but again itself is in no manner 'future-proof' and I think not even on most products on shelves..but rolling in now).
I will leave the above sour grapes in place as regards my feelings about the DVI to HDMI migration, as it does illustrate, that if you maintain a high interest in continuing to research and read about AV (as I did) nothing is as cut & dried as first appearances. ...


For me, on audio, it all boiled down to what I thought of the sound (not the specs) To accomplish this since I did consider web purchases on my main audio system, I listened to as many brands as possible at the B&M's. I noted when people stated such & such brand (which I could access at a store) tended to 'warm' or 'bright' and applied whether I liked what a large group of users of the brand called 'bright' or 'warm' matching the descriptions of owners of a web product, to choose which I would consider ordering in for a demo.

[end of book ]
Apologies to the great editors which be, after the time it takes me to type this, I'm too worn out to take the four hours I would require to make it a sensibly sized post!

 

[Terri M]

Very good advice from all.
Wow Mary, I will need some time to digest all that. Thank you for checking out the speaker specs. Very interesting about the silk fabric.

This weekend is the show in NYC.

My DH is willing to take me. Do you think it worth while to go?
I just don't want to get overwhelmed. Outlaw Audio will be there.

Again thank you all for the continued support. It's just great to be able to let you know where I'm at in this process and still get feedback.

Best wishes,
Terri

 

[Mary M S]

Go...if it's of interest!
But you might be digging your own money pit here!
Might as well throw that budget out the window if you gaze on the goodies too long.
I'd love to one day, give us a 'review' if you do!

 

[Terri M]

I finally sat down to take notes from the posts I just glossed over the other night.

I'm armed and ready. I hope.

Mary: That was very informative and I understood most of it. Thank you for your time and effort. I realize that manufacturers claim certain watts per channel and if I digested this correctly I should check the ohms.

Two things concern me when I read reviews of receivers. It is often stated that the menu is confusing and the set-up daunting. The title of this post is non-technical gal. I hope I'm not going to buy the best receiver I can and end up not hooking it up correctly.

I'll let you know what receivers make the list and speakers for that matter.

Terri

 

[Terri M]

I seem to like this receiver:

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=...s=Receiver&p=i

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=...class=Receiver

Anything in the specs I should be alerted to, It has HDMI connectivity 2 in/ 1 out. And the HDMI is 1.3.
The power is 8 ohms which is probably more like 80w per channel.

Terri

 

[Cees Alons]

Terri,

That's the very newest Onkyo receiver. It will support the new audio techniques of the HD formats. Some people on this forum even hesitate to buy it, because it's the very first commercial receiver doing so. And, indeed, it even has HDMI 1.3.

It actually can output 90W in each channel, if a 8 Ohm (that's a value for 'impedance') speaker is connected to that channel. It also supports 6 Ohms (speakers have an impedance that varies a little with the frequency of the sound), but not 4 Ohms.
In 6 Ohms it can ever deliver 110 Watts.

The impedance of a speaker is its resistance to turn voltage into current.
If you shortcut two wires, you create an impedance of almost 0 Ohms, and any voltage will produce a very big current (possibly with bad results ), because there's no resistance to speak of against turning it into electric current.

The best solution is to match the impedance the receiver manufacturer publishes with that of your speakers.
So if you buy that particular receiver, you better have 8 Ohms speakers.

To me that receiver looks like a fantastic HD receiver, but I just learned (on this very forum) that a Pioneer with similar specs is coming out too. You should certainly check that one as well, because Pioneer has a very good name in that respect.


Cees

 

[Mary M S]

Cee's explained Ohm's much better than I!

The only reason I included the topic, is it pushes you (amongst all the dizzying unfamiliar terms) to think about what is behind construction of a product.
What these 'specs' really mean as regards differences between units.
Playing in AV long enough, you will also begin to find, a product which does not have the 'ideal' in all portions of 'specs', can still 'sound' better than a product which does.
All parts have to work together as a whole.

Though it seems a little more than you might wish to be confused with, when I first brought it up! (Cee's can correct me if I'm wrong)...you do attempt to match impedance...
I wanted you to be aware, those specs, can be - indicative (in a receiver which does not bar you from connecting speakers lower than 8-Ohms) that it is a little 'heavier built' (more capable) in that area of it's construction, than one which does.

My speakers are 'mixed' in impedance ratings (4&8) since I kept surrounds from the first speaker purchase but later replaced my mains. This means my pre-pro via the amp, is dealing with different impedance loads from each. Common occurrence in systems and some people will wire speakers in a non-standard manner which will also change the total impedance load presented to the receiver. (way more than you need to care about now)

By bringing it up at this time - I did not mean to move your focus too keenly to watts and ohms!
It is not something to 'worry' about at all, - just a guideline - as to when your looking at specs on the box, why one receivers 'stats' might indicate better construction over a competitor.

I left in the HDMI section on the chance that (if like me), these kinds of detail intrigue you, it might send you googling to see what it all means.

I have not pulled your display stats, but if that purchase does not include version 1.3 what that means is that certain 'features' of HDMI version 1.3 (newest) will not pass through the 'chain' unless all components.....display etc, have it.

These things factor in some peoples purchase decisions.
Some will decide they don't need the latest version of ?? since other parts in their system can not take advantage of all the 'features'.

Many want it, because most consumers end up during future upgrades replacing only a part at a time, (not the whole system).
When you upgrade some older portion of your system that did not include the feature...the portion of your system which already has the unaccessed feature, sitting idle for a while, can finally use it, via another purchase on down the road.

All factors no one 'has' to know while shopping AV!
Just things to learn if you are 'into' the subject, which as you pick and choose what interests you. Could influence current/future purchases.

PS. Re: Understanding how to setup & wire your new purchases. Since your here at all, you'll be fine! Just spend extra minutes studying the manuals connection options, and do ask if you get in trouble.

Since I have not spent the years some have, hooking these things up, I'm still very slow, and have to mull over it when it involves other peoples purchases I'm not familiar with. (short memory retention span!)
If I haven't had to move things around in many months, I still occasionally have to dig out a manual (especially if I'm helping a friend who just bought something), or stop extra minutes to think it out. But in general I'm becoming faster at it than my husband now, since he found out I could do it and is happy to pass the 'chore' off to me.

Just re-rigged my mothers system after it was dismantled and moved out while wood floors were installed in the room. Didn't pull a single manual out, and had it done in record time! Shades of a borderline want-to-be geek [I was actually proud of that (simple for most) feat.]

 

[Terri M]

Quote:
It actually can output 90W in each channel, if a 8 Ohm (that's a value for 'impedance') speaker is connected to that channel. It also supports 6 Ohms (speakers have an impedance that varies a little with the frequency of the sound), but not 4 Ohms.
In 6 Ohms it can ever deliver 110 Watts.

Many of the speakers I'm investigating have impedance of 8 Ohms.
I'm assuming that is because they aren't as powerful as many other more powerful speakers. Am I correct that if I wanted to upgrade down the road (I hope I won't have to) that if the speakers are 6 or 5 Ohm impedance that the receiver will not deliver the power needed?

Terri

 

[Cees Alons]

Terri,

Yes it will.
If the impedance of the new speakers is lower, the receiver will tend to deliver more Watts!

Even to the extend that, if your receiver is built for 8 Ohms speakers, replacing them with 4 Ohms ones will create a chance of getting distortion if you turn the volume dial totally up.

But frankly: you will easily hear that, and it will probably already be way too loud in your room before any harm can occur. (Just don't use setups like that in big spaces like at enormous parties forcing people to turn it up beyond its specs).

If the new impedances are higher than the old ones on the other hand (but not idiotic, like >16 Ohms, of course), just turn up the volume a bit. Your ears will serve as a magnificent measuring device!

Personally, I slightly prefer 8 Ohms speakers for common use, because they tend to be the "safest".


Cees

 

[Mary M S]

Terri,

I think I've really confused you.

Most speakers these days are going to be rated at 4 or 8 ohms.
Something that stuck out to me way back when wandering around the web learning is that although your speakers and receiver might both be rated at 8-Ohms, - does not always mean that the resistance stays exactly at 8-Ohms.
Ohms resistance - can shift sometimes lower, due to frequency and volume etc.

At the right frequencies with your volume cranked up.. although your speakers are listed at 8-Ohms the resistance they present to your receiver can actually come down ( to 7-Ohms etc).

When the amp sees less resistance (from the speaker) that is like opening a faucet wider, letting the amp pour out more voltage into the speakers, from the receiver.
Matched impedance keeps this all in range, since more voltage than it is rated for, pouring in to a speaker can damage it or create distortion.

So any receiver which says 100 watts at 8-Ohms will always be able to send more wattage if its connected to a speaker with only 4 Ohms resistance, because 4Ohms is 'less' resistance and allows more voltage in.

Just like your example
90W at 8-Ohm
110w at 6-Ohm.

Cee's please! call bunk on me if you feel this shouldn't factor.

When I was shopping for speakers I noticed occasionally the center channel of the same manuf. line was rated at different Ohms than the mains/surrounds.
People upgrading sometimes replace (as I did) only some of their speakers - and can end up with both 4 & 8 Ohms speakers mixed within the system.

How the electronics in a receiver handles this...filters, capacitors, transistors, (some sort of choke in the system) I have no idea. ...But it is my understanding if a receiver does not bar you from connecting a speaker of less than 8-Ohms, it is slight added safety margin for your speakers. Additionaly, you can damage amps from pushing them hard, if the manuf wants the amp to have a 8Ohm load, and you wire 4Ohm speakers you'll allowing the amp (due to lack of resistance to be overworked.) I'm sure people end up in this situation and don't notice a problem...as long as they don't tend to also overmax their volume. (asking even more from the amp).

If for any reason the Ohms (resistance from the speakers) drops allowing the amp to send more voltage to the speakers. A receiver rated for handling 8-Ohms and lower than, - will better control how it sends higher voltage (watts) to your speakers.

What this boils down to in shopping for me....if I had 2 receivers I was considering for purchase and felt them equal.
I liked the sound of both. but one receiver notes: Do not connect speakers less than 8Ohms.
I would purchase the receiver which did not bar me from connecting speakers rated less than 8-Ohms.

I hope ^ makes any sense?

(Trust Cees)

I think I've pulled your focus onto a detail you dont' need to worry unduly about.