Can Criterion Survive in Today's Market? (1 Viewer)

[Jon Robertson]

Richard - in regard to the two Woo flicks, I believe the consensus is that both versions of The Killer have comparable transfers, or rather, compression job, with the WinStar version having some ghosting effects and even pixelation break-up, which I definitely saw.
The Hard Boiled transfer is reportedly inferior (this from DVDLaser.com) and even a WinStar representative and Doug Pratt (from above site) having an e-mail correspondance when WinStar accused DVDLaser (also a monthly print publication) of not giving an objective review and automatically pronouncing them inferior as opposed to Criterion's OOP editions.
The whole debacle can be seen with the reviews in October 2000 issue and the on the letters of either November or December (I think, but don't quote me on that).
The subtitles ARE more accurate on the Criterion version and they are John Woo approved (at least when the laserdisc came out), but perhaps he's grown fond of the Mickey Mouse/Dumbo names and his main character being called Jeffrey (or 'Jeff') since then.

 

[Rouslan Sytnik]

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[Edited last by Rouslan Sytnik on September 07, 2001 at 10:03 PM]

 

[Jeff Adkins]

Also, another reason that they have to charge more money is that they don't own most of the films, but only license them from other companies.

Well, they do own the Janus library which makes up a bulk of their releases. What I don't understand is why they don't reprice their older releases like just about every studio is doing now. You might say "They don't need to", but did Warner really need to reprice North By Northwest down to $19.98? Even Columbia is repricing a lot of their older releases to $14.95. I'm not saying that Criterion needs to go as low as $15. Obviously with Criterion you are often getting a premium product, but it would be nice if some of the older releases like Lady Vanishes could be more like $25 instead of $40. There are numerous Criterion discs that I would go back and buy if they were repriced. At least Buena Vista is repricing Criterion's Chasing Amy down to $25. My point is that repricing of back catalog is standard in the video world. Criterion seems to still be living in the laserdisc world where prices were increased more often than lowered.
Jeff

 

[Rouslan Sytnik]

[Edited last by Rouslan Sytnik on September 07, 2001 at 10:04 PM]

 

[Matt_Stevens]

Also both the Criterion and Winstar versions of The Killer and Hard Boiled have identical transfers.

That may be true, but Criterion's DVDs were rushed and they look it. Both disc mastering jobs are poor, with Hard Boiled being so dark, it is utterly unwatchable compared to the Criterion laserdisc and the Winstar DVD (which look almost identical). The Japanese laserdisc of HARD BOILED looks better than all of the above. Whatever print they used was in damn fine shape because it's just wonderful. No English subtitles, of course.
When it comes to Asian films, HONG KONG LEGENDS is putting Criterion to shame. It's a shame they cannot get the rights to some of the better Hong Kong films like DRUNKEN MASTER 2, OPERATION CONDOR, FIST OF LEGEND and A BETTER TOMORROW.

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www.deceptions.net/superman

 

[Dome Vongvises]

Why Al, I'm simply shocked you didn't mention David Lean or Alfred Hitchcock.
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"I don't know, Marge. Trying is the first step towards failure." - Homer J. Simpson
[Edited last by Dome Vongvises on August 30, 2001 at 11:21 PM]

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

An interesting note in this thread is the mention of some of Criterion's earliest titles, then comparing them with recent releases from other sources. For several years the Criterion Silence of the Lambs was the definitive version, and still holds some of the best supplemental material, including jodie Foster's commentary. I will grant you that Ruscico is doing a great job with many titles as well, but they also don't have domestic distribution for some of those titles, so using them as comparison is the same as comparing R2 discs to their R1 couterparts.
As for packaging, Criterion does include much more relevant packaging than many studios, and as for supplements, I find Criterion's not only appropriate, but also extremely tasteful and relevant to the release. Anyone can throw in deleted scenes or promo pics, or sit someone down for a couple of hours for a commentary. Criterion chooses supplements that compliment the films they are presenting - like the Saltair feature on Carnival of Souls or Michael Powell's home movies on I Know Where I'm Going , or the interview with Ingmar Bergman and Erland Josephson on Cries and Whispers . These aren't just any old extras, they suit what the film is, and really add to the presentation. Many extras are not worth watching, with Criterion they almost always are.
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Link Removed | Burt Lancaster is Link Removed | dOc

 

[Bryant Frazer]

The important thing about Criterion is that they cultivate a certain sensibility about films. The company considers itself curator of an intriguing and eclectic library of films, and part of its job as curator is to put those films into perspective and in context through tasteful presentation and selection of supplemental materials.
I was reading through Bill Hunt's transcript of a recent panel discussion among DVD producers that he moderated, and somebody there was waxing nostalgic for the day when a new laserdisc commentary was truly an event -- I mean, people paid $125 for Criterion's CAV Raging Bull not for the quality of the transfer (which you could get for $50 or so on Criterion's CLV disc) but for the knockout commentary by Martin Scorsese and Thelma Schoonmaker. That's because Criterion approaches the concept of a commentary track with such intelligence and rigor. The tracks are recorded over the course of many hours and interviews, and are finally edited into the seamlessly flowing commentary that you hear when you play the disc. The job is not unlike that of editing a book, or writing a longish magazine article -- you do research, you sit the director down to talk about his work, you look at the raw material afterward, and you tease out the most important or intriguing themes and issues to present to your reader/viewer.
I was watching the DVD of Josie and the Pussycats (a film that I'm actually kinda fond of) the other night, and I was inspired to write an essay titled, "Why DVD Commentaries Suck." I mean, this disc is just a textbook example. Not only do the filmmakers not have much of anything interesting to say in the first place -- their defense of the film's over-the-top satire is half-hearted at best and there's absolutely nobody asking follow-up questions to goose them into saying something provocative -- but Universal couldn't even be bothered to make sure the commentary is in sync with the image. Instead, the audio is about four seconds behind, so that every time one of the directors says something about "That shot right ... THERE!", I found myself backing the stupid disc up a few seconds so that I could figure out exactly what he was trying to highlight. It's just shoddy, insulting work. Of course part of the problem is that most of these commentaries are not edited at all; rather, the filmmaker is just plopped in front of a monitor showing a copy of the movie and asked to orate for two hours. Sometimes it works out OK, but it's usually done because it's cheaper, not because it's the best way to get a good commentary.
Even the better studio special editions rarely rise, in my opinion, to the level of a good Criterion disc. Sheer quantity of extras bores me; it's the quality of the extras that impresses me, and Criterion consistently features the highest-quality extras. Even New Line's Se7en and Fox's Fight Club, which are both great DVDs, suffer from a wee bit of overkill in the commentary department. The more technical, tightly focused Criterion version beats the New Line Se7en on a TKO.
I interviewed Terry Gilliam yesterday for a magazine article and he expressed his undying love for Criterion, opining that the level of quality in the home video market has risen specifically because Criterion was so superior to the studios for so many years. "No one is better than them," he said. I asked him whether he had even been approached by Columbia TriStar about doing a new version of Baron Munchausen or The Fisher King with some of the extras from the Criterion LDs and he said the subject had never even been mentioned. That's the level of interest we get from the studios.
-bf-
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Bryant Frazer
Deep Focus
www.deep-focus.com

 

[Rich Malloy]

quote: RUSCICO released Andrei Rublev. And it’s better.
]http://www.ruscico.com/detail_eng.php?link=133[/quote]
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"Only one is a wanderer; two together are always going somewhere."

Link Removed
[Edited last by Al Brown on August 31, 2001 at 08:56 AM]

 

[Rich Malloy]

BTW, why is that I suddenly can't format a link so that it's hidden under text?
This is why this page is now so wide that you have to scroll back and forth to read it - very annoying!
Has something changed? Do I need to engage a certain setting to do basic HTML coding?
(It says "HTML is ON" in my little reply window. What gives?)

 

[Rich Malloy]

I give up. If anyone can tell me why the basic HTML isn't working anymore, I'll be happy to fix it. Till then, please copy and paste the link I included if you want to start to get a handle on the differences between the Criterion and Ruscico cuts of RUBLEV.

 

[Ted Todorov]

I’m with both Al and Rouslan on this argument. How is that possible?
I am certainly very happy with Criterion – I counted last night that I have 33 of their DVDs and they are for the most part great. By the same token, I don’t think (unfortunately) that their name is an absolute guarantee of quality. They continue to issue non-anamorphic widescreen titles, and frankly I don’t care to hear their excuses. They have the option of not releasing them, and thus not compromising their good name.
I take my no more non-anamorphic pledge seriously (OK, OK I never make pledges of any kind, but…). I didn’t buy Mona Lisa when it came out, nor did I go back and buy Amarcord & Walkabout, three of my favorite movies. While I am not holding my breath that Criterion will fix their mistakes, it’s a big world, and someone in R2 or R4 is going to do it right. I’m glad I don’t have the non-anamorphic OOP Criterion 400 Blows since it is coming out from MK2 in anamorphic widescreen with a commentary track and all kinds of extras. It is just a matter of time for the rest.
Rouslan says that the film itself is the most important thing: of course I agree. But I also believe that the only real way to watch a movie is on 35mm (or 70mm) film in a theater. That is how I have seen all the films I mentioned and most of the ones discussed in this thread. So DVDs are inevitably not just the movies but also a collection – and one wants the best possible version for ones collection and home viewing pleasure. Before DVD I used collect screenplays, posters and other movie books. It would be a mistake to pretend that the DVDs are somehow different. Which is why I totally disagree with Rouslan that it is better to get more inferior versions, because they are cheaper. If the thing is the movies, they can always be seen in a movie theater, if one cares enough to really try.
Unfortunately according to DVDdebate the R2 Walkabout is also not anamorphic, so I guess the wait continues for that one.
Ted

 

[Scott Shanks]

Please correct me if anything I state is wrong. I was not into HT until about a year and a half ago or so. Therefore, I missed out, thankfully it seems, on the laserdisc thing.
I am assuming Criterion had access to issuing many more titles on laserdisc in the past because the laserdisc was not a broadly accepted format and studios would be more willing to license them titles to produce an LD.
I am assuming that Criterion has to produce some mainstream titles in order in help, revenue-wise, fund the production of their titles that have a less broader appeal. Maybe this is where I am mistaken. Maybe there is a large enough audience for the foregn/non-mainstream titles that they can survive with just serving that market.
But is SEEMS to me that in order to compete over the long term in a market that is much different than the LD market, they will have to do something about their pricing. I, personally, have a finite amount of money to spend on DVD's each month. So the decision may come down to something like this - Do I buy Memento for $20 and Citizen Kane for $20 - or do I buy Rebecca (which I have been waiting for a good release of for a long time) for $35. That's a tough call for me - I'll probably buy the two and wait on Rebecca.
I'm really not "into" foreign flics that much which probably makes me closeminded to alot of people, but probably puts me in the majority, however. Like someone else mentioned earlier, I can't rent alot of the movies in the collection because none of our local video stores carry many of their titles. That leaves buying a title site unseen and at the prices they charge, it's not worth it. That makes it hard for Criterion to attract new customers which is essential in a market such as DVD.
Quality does not always translate to profitability, unfortunately.
Just my two cents.
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[Marc Colella]

I asked him whether he had even been approached by Columbia TriStar about doing a new version of Baron Munchausen or The Fisher King with some of the extras from the Criterion LDs and he said the subject had never even been mentioned. That's the level of interest we get from the studios.

It's not really fair to compare Columbia TriStar with Criterion. CTS has many more titles to deal with than Criterion does.
Gilliam has to know that his movies are the only ones on hold, since CTS can only work on so many titles at a time.
I'm sure CTS will eventually get around to releasing a new version of Baron Munchausen and The Fisher King, and they'll be great.

 

[Ken_McAlinden]

It's not really fair to compare Columbia TriStar with Criterion. CTS has many more titles to deal with than Criterion does.

Isn't the amount of attention paid to the title by Criterion the whole point? If Columbia Tristar has a great reason to not get around to doing high quality SEs, does that change the fact that they are not doing them? Who cares what their excuse is? They could ease their burden of all those titles by sub-licensing them to Criterion like they did for laserdisc.
In the meantime, Columbia's Fisher King DVD has excellent anamorphic picture quality and an anemic 2.0 track. The Criterion laserdisc has merely OK picture quality, but a fantastic PCM surround track and very good extras. The fact that Fisher King DVD has been re-priced and is available for

 

[Scott Shanks]

Ken,
That has sort of been my whole point. I don't think the studios are going to cut Criterion in on the pie with DVD like they did with LD because DVD is such a large market. But some seem to insist that they can survive catering to the oscure title niche. Maybe that is true, maybe it is not. That is what prompted me to ask the question in the first place.
Scott Shanks
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[Jon Robertson]

Ted - I shocked you haven't bought them if they're some of your favourite films. Mona Lisa and Walkabout both have commentaries with the director and the star that won't appear anywhere else and Amarcord's re-translated and vastly improved subtitles, plus the digital picture restoration, despite it being non-anamorphic, means it will almost certainly be the definitive version for a long time to come.
The transfers on Walkabout and Amarcord are beautiful - rich, detailed, colourful and vibrant. The fact they aren't anamorphic is about the only thing wrong with them. They still look sensational, and I would get them ASAP.
Also, unlike previous MK2 releases, you do realise the upcoming edition of The 400 Blows WILL NOT have English subtitles. Irritating, as the previous Truffaut discs had subtitles for EVERYTHING - commentaries, extras, etc., it is a huge shame, as the French version looked set to trounce the Criterion edition with an anamorphic PAL transfer, commentary by Robert Lachenay, scholarly introductions, an early short film by Truffaut and a mass of archival footage (including interviews and footage from the legendary Cannes premiere).

 

[Ike]

Sorry....
[Edited last by Ike on August 31, 2001 at 04:14 PM]

 

[Bryant Frazer]

Ted - I shocked you haven't bought them if they're some of your favourite films. Mona Lisa and Walkabout both have commentaries with the director and the star that won't appear anywhere else and Amarcord's re-translated and vastly improved subtitles, plus the digital picture restoration, despite it being non-anamorphic, means it will almost certainly be the definitive version for a long time to come.

And I reiterate: the difference is the sensibility that Criterion brings to its releases. For many people, that doesn't matter, and I encourage them to go ahead and keep buying studio titles and waiting for anamorphic releases of movies that Criterion has produced only in 4:3 versions. But for those of us who do appreciate that sensibility, well, it's the only way to fly. Five years from now, I may have a 16x9 television, and there may be an anamorphic widescreen version of Walkabout on the market in some country, somewhere. I'll make the decision at that point whether to spend the $20 on the upgrade. But no matter what, I'll be happy that I spent $30 to buy the original version (with commentary) back in 1998, 'cause I sure have enjoyed having it all this time.
Hell, if the anamorphic version comes out tomorrow, it will still have been worth the $30 to own Walkabout for the last three years. I guess it's just a question of priorities, but this waiting-for-anamorphic mindset never made sense to me.
-bf-
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Bryant Frazer
Deep Focus
www.deep-focus.com

 

[Michael Silla]

I have to agree with alot of what Scott has said. I do however, think that Criterion is somewhat justified in charging more for their disks. They did wonderful work with "Chasing Amy" and "Rushmore", two of my favorite films that were "handled with care."
I especially enjoyed the "Charlie Rose show" clip interviews in Rushmore - it gave me new insight into Bill Murray's career that I never had before. I guess that's the whole point of a good DVD. Every Criterion disk I have bought or rented (hard to find rentals, although Hollywood Video is usually a good place to start) has really made good on the interactive promise of the DVD format.
I do agree that todays market is much different than, let's say, 2 years ago. Let's hope that Criterion keeps it's "base" market, while every once in a while bagging the occasional sale to J6P. Major studios seem to be getting better at releasing quality disks (Cast Away is my favorite in this regard) so perhaps Criterion *might* be compelled to slightly lower prices. Like Scott has previously mentioned, for some of us, it's hard to justify spending $40 dollars on one disk.
Michael.